在bw看到的，真气人，某跟贴的ABC更可气

gonghao

孔乙己说读书人窃书不是偷?这和ETS的考试完全不沾边，自古以来所有的考题在考试之后，即失去神秘性，如果美国人认为这时头一回听说的concept，那它应该改变他们的想法，跟上时代的潮流，更快的更新自己的题目，以保证每个考生的公平和公正，儿不是在这里说“你们应该为做过了10年前的面向全世界的一次GMAT的真题而背上CHEATING的罪名”

repeat again

全世界的学生都不该为考试方案本身的缺陷而负责，应该由考试设计者来HANDLE THIS PROBLEM

琪斯尼

这个事情要怪就怪咱么这些平时不团结的中国人怎么到了考老美的试就如此团结？

看样子还是一盘散沙的中国人在国际上比较受欢迎。

gonghao

Please keep this in mind that ETS/GMAC only disclosed questions through OG. Your analysis is simply based on a wrong definition of "disclosure". I have raised analogy before.

这是ETS一箱情愿的想法，在向全世界的考生公布了考试内容后（即考生看到了试卷，此时ETS已经将所有的考试内容向全部考生公布）这难道不是disclosure？please give me one word to discribe that behavior

就如汽车设计上的瑕疵，造成汽车在使用过程中可能造成事故。包括美国厂家在内，所有的大公司所做的都是，停止销售，召回，修理。而绝对不会向全世界说：这是公司的秘密，你们开车的人知道就行了，以后在路上小心点就是了，但是绝对不能在向朋友和家人需要买车时向你咨询此车的性能时，提及上述内容......

并且告诉全部的驾驶员，你们讨论的那些在我说是故障之前就不是故障，所以你们不能disclosure这些内容！！！？？？

leighyao

你可能会说JJ中有原题，我不否认，但是问题有2个

                          1.同学们在复习时那的是以前已经考过，已不具备机密性质，并非还未公布的机密考题，

Q:why you always avoid the simple fact that 1) you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test, 2) you betray your agreed pledge to not disclose any test content, both of which constitutes the exact defination of what is cheating.

A:1."you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test'因为ETS不愿及时的改变它的考试题目，

  2.after whole world get examiniation ，the  test content had been disclosed by ETS
         2在考题中出现重复是很正常的事，高考中，几年前考过在3至5年后重新出现的题目，比比皆是，难道说我们由于做过的以前的真题和现在的真题一样，所以全部中国考生的高考成绩全部涉嫌CHEATING，不应采信？简直荒唐～～～   

Q:i dont know how many questions will reappear in GAO KAO in a 3-5 year interval. similarly, i also have not idea how many Chinese students retake GAO KAO in a 3-5 years interval. but i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT.

A:"i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT"你终于说对句话，但这并非是全世界学生的错，是ETS 考试方法的一点flaw 。所以学生们不该由于ETS考试设计本身的缺陷而去责怪考生。我们不该为此承担责任，难道不是吗？

就如汽车设计上的瑕疵，造成汽车在使用过程中可能造成事故。包括美国厂家在内，所有的大公司所做的都是，停止销售，召回，修理。而绝对不会向全世界说：这是公司的秘密，你们开车的人知道就行了，以后在路上小心点就是了，但是绝对不能在向朋友和家人需要买车时向你咨询此车的性能时，提及上述内容......

In terms of ETS, please refer to my analogy of house/door first.

One of my jobs was to help high school students to prepare for SAT, so I have been exposed to more ETS series tests. Personally I believe most of all the tests ETS has designed, such as SAT, GRE, GMAT (not TOEFL, esp. PBT TOEFL, though), are of great value to classify pool of candidates into different levels. You said there is a flaw in the test. However, as a matter of fact, there is no flaw on ETS side at all, as the test, foremost, is based on the assumption of "honesty" which is also recorded on paper by your pledge. .

sicneer

以下是引用琪斯尼在2006-2-15 16:49:00的发言：

别检讨了，JJ没有看也好，下载OG也好，参与GAMT讨论也好，考完了就丢一边好了。考试就一个必要条件而已，又不是充分条件。

要谈什么道德品质的问题，就说不清楚了。到哪里找一个彻底的好人？心地善良，有社会责任感，七七八八几条能做到就很不错了。考试做作弊，上升到太高的高度也没什么意义。

right, it is grossly disgustful to do actual cheating on the one hand and claim pure innocence on the other hand. the like of old Chinese saying “即想当婊子，又想立牌坊”。

leighyao

以下是引用gonghao在2006-2-15 17:04:00的发言：

Please keep this in mind that ETS/GMAC only disclosed questions through OG. Your analysis is simply based on a wrong definition of "disclosure". I have raised analogy before.

这是ETS一箱情愿的想法，在向全世界的考生公布了考试内容后（即考生看到了试卷，此时ETS已经将所有的考试内容向全部考生公布）这难道不是disclosure？please give me one word to discribe that behavior

就如汽车设计上的瑕疵，造成汽车在使用过程中可能造成事故。包括美国厂家在内，所有的大公司所做的都是，停止销售，召回，修理。而绝对不会向全世界说：这是公司的秘密，你们开车的人知道就行了，以后在路上小心点就是了，但是绝对不能在向朋友和家人需要买车时向你咨询此车的性能时，提及上述内容......

并且告诉全部的驾驶员，你们讨论的那些在我说是故障之前就不是故障，所以你们不能disclosure这些内容！！！？？？

First of all, ETS only discloses certain questions to ONE individual test candidate, not the ENTIRE WORLD.  I have already given you an analogy regarding confidential draft. You can refer to that.

yaskemail

以下是引用琪斯尼在2006-2-15 16:44:00的发言：

有些和全部，这是有区别的。

断章取义！

还是你先把全部帖子都看清楚了再回你的断章取义贴吧

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-2-15 17:16:05编辑过]

gonghao

以下是引用leighyao在2006-2-15 17:05:00的发言：

你可能会说JJ中有原题，我不否认，但是问题有2个

                          1.同学们在复习时那的是以前已经考过，已不具备机密性质，并非还未公布的机密考题，

Q:why you always avoid the simple fact that 1) you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test, 2) you betray your agreed pledge to not disclose any test content, both of which constitutes the exact defination of what is cheating.

A:1."you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test'因为ETS不愿及时的改变它的考试题目，

  2.after whole world get examiniation ，the  test content had been disclosed by ETS
         2在考题中出现重复是很正常的事，高考中，几年前考过在3至5年后重新出现的题目，比比皆是，难道说我们由于做过的以前的真题和现在的真题一样，所以全部中国考生的高考成绩全部涉嫌CHEATING，不应采信？简直荒唐～～～   

Q:i dont know how many questions will reappear in GAO KAO in a 3-5 year interval. similarly, i also have not idea how many Chinese students retake GAO KAO in a 3-5 years interval. but i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT.

A:"i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT"你终于说对句话，但这并非是全世界学生的错，是ETS 考试方法的一点flaw 。所以学生们不该由于ETS考试设计本身的缺陷而去责怪考生。我们不该为此承担责任，难道不是吗？

就如汽车设计上的瑕疵，造成汽车在使用过程中可能造成事故。包括美国厂家在内，所有的大公司所做的都是，停止销售，召回，修理。而绝对不会向全世界说：这是公司的秘密，你们开车的人知道就行了，以后在路上小心点就是了，但是绝对不能在向朋友和家人需要买车时向你咨询此车的性能时，提及上述内容......

In terms of ETS, please refer to my analogy of house/door first.

One of my jobs was to help high school students to prepare for SAT, so I have been exposed to more ETS series tests. Personally I believe most of all the tests ETS has designed, such as SAT, GRE, GMAT (not TOEFL, esp. PBT TOEFL, though), are of great value to classify pool of candidates into different levels. You said there is a flaw in the test. However, as a matter of fact, there is no flaw on ETS side at all, as the test, foremost, is based on the assumption of "honesty" which is also recorded on paper by your pledge. .

YOU SHOULD BE INFORMED

NOTHING IS PERFECT IN THIS WORD,OF COURSE TEST FROM ETS.

SO THERE DO EXIST FLAW IN THIS TEST.

WE CAN NOT REPSONBALE FOR THE FLAW WHICH PROVIDED BY ETS

gonghao

以下是引用leighyao在2006-2-15 17:09:00的发言：

First of all, ETS only discloses certain questions to ONE individual test candidate, not the ENTIRE WORLD.  I have already given you an analogy regarding confidential draft. You can refer to that.

是啊 披上了电脑随机取题的外衣 以为就万无一失了吗？

根源在哪里？题库，ETS要是真的很硬的话，每次都该出新的题目，这样避免了考察的重复性

CAN they？

no！这就是flaw

leighyao

If you still think so, I respect your personal opinion.

However, even there is a flaw, it doesn't necessarily mean you can take advantage of it. I have pointed out before, you cannot run into one's house and take whatever you want simply because the host didn't lock the door.