在bw看到的，真气人，某跟贴的ABC更可气

yaskemail

以下是引用windhcz在2006-2-15 12:27:00的发言：
c版为cd的贡献是有目共睹的啦，多吃一点，为更大的贡献努力，哈哈

你说的没什么错的啊，有些abc就是那样。何必为她的几句话去讨好呢？真奇怪。

laotou

听着很多xdjm对美国人有点不满，因为他们随意指责我们。 我有个side question: if you are invited to alumni interview, would you rather choose a chinese alumnus or US alumnus?

gonghao

你我都经历过高考，也都知道，考试试题是最高机密

但是有一点请别忘了，试卷一旦拆封，即公之余众，其confidential的characteristic即随之消逝，

从此之后，报纸，电视上出现了‘大量名师分析考题’的文章，甚至更有甚者，将其列入下一年的复习资料中，并要求学生从中把握考试的动向，及出题者的意图。

这绝不是cheating

1.同学们的JJ是在考试之后拿出来讨论的，其confidential的特质不复存在

Q:ridiculous, the confidential nature of any test will be altered only because SOME people aleady knew the content? then what about asset in a company, will it belong to the pulic once it is stolen by the manager in charge ?  

A:你是说当你向全世界宣布一个文件内容的时候，你最后还得加一句，我在这里宣布：以上所说是机密，discussion is not allowed？荒唐～～～～

2.虽然同学们互相交流了JJ，但在考试之前，大家也并不知道下一场考试的题是什么，如何来的cheating只说？

Q：then why most Chinese testers knowingly choose their test dates near the end of a month? why they do not choose the first day of every test month? dont tell me you dont know that reason.

A：为什么大家都愿以放在月底考？LET ME TELL YOU WHY

   a.在月底的时候，ETS向全世界公布了更多的考试题，同学们能练习更多的题目，已判明考试的难度和自己的准备情况，争取在考试中更好的发挥。

   b.如果你简单的将在月底考试，都归为cheating，那么在月底考试的世界所有考生都有嫌疑，都该摒弃，唯一可以相信的就是月初考试的同学，如果是这样的话ETS一个月多次考试还有什么意义呢？一个月一次考试，不就结了吗？

3.我来告诉你什么较cheating，在考试之前即获得考试的全部原题，并提前做针对性极强的准备，这才较CHEATING

Q:completely blabbering, it is just like to say steal one chick is not a crime, only steal one hundred chicks is.

A:We are not steal，我们只是在试题在全世界范围内公布后，进行了讨论，steal和我们所谈的没有任何关联，类比也谈不上。我们在考试前根本不知道考试的内容会是什么，巧合的是，我们复习到的题目在考试中又一次出现了，整个过程考生，都不处于决定者的地位。如何蓄意去cheating呢？

你可能会说JJ中有原题，我不否认，但是问题有2个

                          1.同学们在复习时那的是以前已经考过，已不具备机密性质，并非还未公布的机密考题，

Q:why you always avoid the simple fact that 1) you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test, 2) you betray your agreed pledge to not disclose any test content, both of which constitutes the exact defination of what is cheating.

A:1."you will meet the exact question (JJ) on your actual test'因为ETS不愿及时的改变它的考试题目，

  2.after whole world get examiniation ，the  test content had been disclosed by ETS
         2在考题中出现重复是很正常的事，高考中，几年前考过在3至5年后重新出现的题目，比比皆是，难道说我们由于做过的以前的真题和现在的真题一样，所以全部中国考生的高考成绩全部涉嫌CHEATING，不应采信？简直荒唐～～～   

Q:i dont know how many questions will reappear in GAO KAO in a 3-5 year interval. similarly, i also have not idea how many Chinese students retake GAO KAO in a 3-5 years interval. but i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT.

A:"i do know one tester can face a large number of same question in the same 1-2 month in GMAT"你终于说对句话，但这并非是全世界学生的错，是ETS 考试方法的一点flaw 。所以学生们不该由于ETS考试设计本身的缺陷而去责怪考生。我们不该为此承担责任，难道不是吗？

就如汽车设计上的瑕疵，造成汽车在使用过程中可能造成事故。包括美国厂家在内，所有的大公司所做的都是，停止销售，召回，修理。而绝对不会向全世界说：这是公司的秘密，你们开车的人知道就行了，以后在路上小心点就是了，但是绝对不能在向朋友和家人需要买车时向你咨询此车的性能时，提及上述内容......

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-2-15 16:41:15编辑过]

cicilla

以下是引用yaskemail在2006-2-15 16:00:00的发言：

你说的没什么错的啊，有些abc就是那样。何必为她的几句话去讨好呢？真奇怪。

讨好我？原来他是在讨好我，我还真没看出来。

琪斯尼

以下是引用cicilla在2006-2-15 16:35:00的发言：

讨好我？原来他是在讨好我，我还真没看出来。

笨C版！要知道这年头谁不会说几句反话和凉话啊？

gonghao

没有什么讨好的迹象啊

leighyao

以下是引用smocky在2006-2-15 15:40:00的发言：

自己没有做，就说自己没有做，不需要还在后面多此一举，得意洋洋的加上一句说，“不过，在遥远的CHINA那个地方的人，都做了哦。。。"  以进一步达到抬高自己的目的。

If this refers to me, I can only say, I don't intend to grace myself. I would elaborate it later.

i could say, "gee, i didn't do it, Why raise such an issue to EACH and EVERYONE of us?" or, "why i suffer such DISGRACE  that those self-claimed ARC put on me?"

The ARC first presented a fact and might have added his own anger. Certainly you can ask this question "gee, i didn't do it, Why raise such an issue to EACH and EVERYONE of us?" . However, if you do ask yourself this question, I believe you can understand this ARC's stand.

中国人中间这种大家拼命disgrace对方的行为 （俗称“窝里斗”），非常影响国家/个人发展的efficiency & competitive edge

In terms of efficiency and competiveness, do you think it is better to disclose the error part or simply make it up? On the other hand, I don't think the discussion at here so far can be classified as "disgrace".

谚语说得好，把邻居家(local mainlander) 的家具砸个稀巴烂，并不会让自己(ARC)的家具显得更好看。

I am not aware of this "old saying". But I wish you could neutrally consider something. He might have overstated something and made the entire issue look worse.However, the key point here is whether he has ground to present some simple facts.

I would like to say something more on "grace"/"disgrace".

I don't think anyone here can claim that he/she is totally innocent in terms of ethics. I confess that I cannot. I didn't use JJ, but I still downloaded OG at here. However, I assume the responsibility for violating such an ethics discipline. I don't intend to pretend that I am a sage and citize all. Yet, I just don't think it is a good approach to depending oneself when he/she had indeed done something wrong. 孔乙己说读书人窃书不是偷。Should we become another 孔乙己(s)?

琪斯尼

以下是引用yaskemail在2006-2-15 16:00:00的发言：

你说的没什么错的啊，有些abc就是那样。何必为她的几句话去讨好呢？真奇怪。

有些和全部，这是有区别的。

断章取义！

琪斯尼

以下是引用leighyao在2006-2-15 16:44:00的发言：

I would like to say something more on "grace"/"disgrace".

I don't think anyone here can claim that he/she is totally innocent in terms of ethics. I confess that I cannot. I didn't use JJ, but I still downloaded OG at here. However, I assume the responsibility for violating such an ethics discipline. I don't intend to pretend that I am a sage and citize all. Yet, I just don't think it is a good approach to depending oneself when he/she had indeed done something wrong. 孔乙己说读书人窃书不是偷。Should we become another 孔乙己(s)?

别检讨了，JJ没有看也好，下载OG也好，参与GAMT讨论也好，考完了就丢一边好了。考试就一个必要条件而已，又不是充分条件。

要谈什么道德品质的问题，就说不清楚了。到哪里找一个彻底的好人？心地善良，有社会责任感，七七八八几条能做到就很不错了。考试做作弊，上升到太高的高度也没什么意义。

leighyao

以下是引用gonghao在2006-2-15 16:29:00的发言：

你我都经历过高考，也都知道，考试试题是最高机密

但是有一点请别忘了，试卷一旦拆封，即公之余众，其confidential的characteristic即随之消逝，

从此之后，报纸，电视上出现了‘大量名师分析考题’的文章，甚至更有甚者，将其列入下一年的复习资料中，并要求学生从中把握考试的动向，及出题者的意图。

这绝不是cheating

1.同学们的JJ是在考试之后拿出来讨论的，其confidential的特质不复存在

Q:ridiculous, the confidential nature of any test will be altered only because SOME people aleady knew the content? then what about asset in a company, will it belong to the pulic once it is stolen by the manager in charge ?  

A:你是说当你向全世界宣布一个文件内容的时候，你最后还得加一句，我在这里宣布：以上所说是机密，discussion is not allowed？荒唐～～～～

2.虽然同学们互相交流了JJ，但在考试之前，大家也并不知道下一场考试的题是什么，如何来的cheating只说？

Q：then why most Chinese testers knowingly choose their test dates near the end of a month? why they do not choose the first day of every test month? dont tell me you dont know that reason.

A：为什么大家都愿以放在月底考？LET ME TELL YOU WHY

   a.在月底的时候，ETS向全世界公布了更多的考试题，同学们能练习更多的题目，已判明考试的难度和自己的准备情况，争取在考试中更好的发挥。

   b.如果你简单的将在月底考试，都归为cheating，那么在月底考试的世界所有考生都有嫌疑，都该摒弃，唯一可以相信的就是月初考试的同学，如果是这样的话ETS一个月多次考试还有什么意义呢？一个月一次考试，不就结了吗？

3.我来告诉你什么较cheating，在考试之前即获得考试的全部原题，并提前做针对性极强的准备，这才较CHEATING

Q:completely blabbering, it is just like to say steal one chick is not a crime, only steal one hundred chicks is.

A:We are not steal，我们只是在试题在全世界范围内公布后，进行了讨论，steal和我们所谈的没有任何关联，类比也谈不上。我们在考试前根本不知道考试的内容会是什么，巧合的是，我们复习到的题目在考试中又一次出现了，整个过程考生，都不处于决定者的地位。如何蓄意去cheating呢？

Please keep this in mind that ETS/GMAC only disclosed questions through OG. Your analysis is simply based on a wrong definition of "disclosure". I have raised analogy before.

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-2-15 16:51:05编辑过]