What is success

cmnstlyng

以下是引用pplpp在2007-4-6 4:49:00的发言：

mm 还是逻辑的问题，你所列的理由：

在欺骗（如果来之前就意图如此），或是轻易打破自己的承诺（如果是中途改变主意），。。。。等等等等

都是自己的揣度。

论证建立在假设基础上，而这个假设既然未必符合事实。

i think you misunderstood what she's saying. She's saying if those are the premise(欺骗（如果来之前就意图如此），或是轻易打破自己的承诺（如果是中途改变主意), then that's it's unethical.

cmnstlyng

以下是引用yaoyao99在2007-4-6 4:50:00的发言：

Ha, let me pull it back.  The behavior of those students bailing out half way is a pretty good example of what would happen when one has an unrealistic or inappropriate idea of success, especially when the idea is built on an empty framework, lacking the moral constraints and a strong value system. 

Undertaking a path generated by social pressure and ideology of others will only generate confusion down the road, especially when one is faced with difficult decisions, which can easily lead to disgraceful behaviors such as the ones we mentioned above.  I think that's what XY is referring to, as one of the root cause. 

nice pull!

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-4-6 4:58:48编辑过]

yaoyao99

以下是引用cmnstlyng在2007-4-6 4:58:00的发言：

nice pull!

*bow*

pplpp

以下是引用携隐在2007-4-6 4:42:00的发言：
pplpp，讨论的很多了，大家其实把自己的意思都说的也挺清楚的了，只是互相说服不了对方。我们各自保留意见，讨论就到这里吧。

同意停止，但这个问题不是说服说不服的问题。

对这个case的批判性辩论的前提是 辍学PhD的辍学原因：

部分人的观点是：他们在来之前就 purposely， intendly，就是有这个打算的。 ——我称之为恶意本原假设。对这种case我的态度也明确，参加前面post。

我的观点是：这种假设未必正确，世界是动态的，原因未必就是这样。phd有几年的学习过程，这期间一个人发生想法变化是完全可以理解的，没必要上升到道德高度。相反，应本着人性关怀的态度，尊重个体的选择。

另外，读phd前国内了解到的信息未必是符合这边的实际情况的信息，有个信息不对称的因素在里面。

如果说我们的辩论出现什么问题，可能是分析问题的methodology的问题。

pplpp

以下是引用cmnstlyng在2007-4-6 4:56:00的发言：

i think you misunderstood what she's saying. She's saying if those are the premise(欺骗（如果来之前就意图如此），或是轻易打破自己的承诺（如果是中途改变主意), then that's it's unethical.

谢谢，你的post证明了我的理解没有misunderstood 携隐，我反驳的就是这个if

yaoyao99

Silly boy, we're talking about the opportunists here, not the innocent few who found their calling half way through their PhD career.

pplpp

以下是引用yaoyao99在2007-4-6 4:56:00的发言：

That's the assumption we've agreed to work with, no?

not really。 如果那样，就不会辩到现在

yaoyao99

以下是引用pplpp在2007-4-6 5:05:00的发言：

谢谢，你的post证明了我的理解没有misunderstood 携隐，我反驳的就是这个if

I also respect the few that you're referring to, who decides not to waste their life and continue to pursue the shining title, after they realize it's not what they're looking for, provided they give notice well in advance and work with the professor/their research group to wrap up what they have done.  I think they are brave and are happy for them because they are following their heart.

On the other hand, I despite those who purposely look for the loopholes in the system and betray the trust of those who took them in with a leap of faith.  

 

pplpp

以下是引用yaoyao99在2007-4-6 5:05:00的发言：
Silly boy, we're talking about the opportunists here, not the innocent few who found their calling half way through their PhD career.

confused by this sentence

pplpp

以下是引用yaoyao99在2007-4-6 5:12:00的发言：

I also respect the few that you're referring to, who decides not to waste their life and continue to pursue the shining title, after they realize it's not what they're looking for, provided they give notice well in advance and work with the professor/their research group to wrap up what they have done.  I think they are brave and are happy for them because they are following their heart.

On the other hand, I despite those who purposely look for the loopholes in the system and betray the trust of those who took them in with a leap of faith.  

Great, you understood my points.