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39岁女的才开始上JD,是不是失去理智了?

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41#
发表于 2007-7-15 11:12:00 | 只看该作者

如果你一开始就认定你是失去理智,那我们还有什么好说的?有些人50几了还在法学院里读书,他们没人这么大惊小怪的。有的女孩30几了,还没结婚,照样考3次LSAT。

这是个人的决定,不要问别人。

42#
发表于 2007-7-16 11:22:00 | 只看该作者
以下是引用frogette在2007-7-15 8:40:00的发言:

about age discrimination in law firms:

http://anonymouslawyer.blogspot.com/2007/06/i-received-e-mail-asking-me-to-comment.html

it's meant to be obnoxious, so take it with a grin of salt

On, man, thanks for digging this out! So interesting! I couldn't help reading it twice!

Monday, June 25, 2007

 
    

I received an e-mail asking me to comment on age discrimination in law firm hiring:

"A few weeks ago, there was a terrible article in the National Law Journal about how 'older' or second-career lawyers most often end up as solos, prompted by some NALP statistics about the paucity of grads 36 and older in BigLaw. The article went on to say ... that nontrads don’t want to work hard and that they don’t like taking orders from people younger than them, so they don’t seek jobs in BigLaw. ... Right. I quit a job I was excellent at, went into debt, spent three years in law school, because I don’t want to work hard. Huh?"

My comment? Your e-mail proves the point. You were reading the National Law Journal. And then you took the time to e-mail me. That's time you could have been billing clients. That's time you could have been working hard and making partners money. But you weren't. You were slacking off, just like everyone your age does, with their "children" and their "elderly parents" and their "doctor appointments." Young associates don't read the National Law Journal. They use it to wipe themselves after they go to the bathroom in their office trash cans because they don't want to take time out from billing clients to go to the bathroom. Young associates don't think about whining to someone like me because they're too busy knocking on my door and asking me how they can make my life easier and my clients happier and my contractor richer.

It's not my fault, or the fault of any of my colleagues, that you decided to go to law school. It's not our fault you got into debt. It's not our fault you want a job you can't get. Baseball players can't get jobs after age 40 either. It's the same thing here. Your skills may or may not deteriorate (I can argue both sides of that), but your stamina certainly does. Your energy does. Your drive does. If you're just starting out at age 40, you know you're never going to get to the top, so why even try. You're complacent. Not because you're choosing to be, but because you're too old and experienced in life not to be. Young people don't have perspective. They don't understand that the kinds of things we demand from them are pointless and not worth getting all worked up about. They don't get that we're not going to fire them. They don't get that most of the pressure they feel to stay here all night is pressure they're putting on themselves and that the consequences for living a normal life are all in their head. But older associates know it's all a bit of a game. Older associates know I don't really have the power to behead an associate in the guillotine I stole from the Studio 60 soundstage when we took the summer associates on a tour. But the kids don't. They think it's going to really happen. They think we're really going to kill them if they don't finish the document review by 6AM tomorrow morning. And that's why we like them.

Maybe you're willing to work hard. But you're probably not willing to be humiliated, and honestly it's a lot less fun to humiliate a 40-year-old, with 2 kids and 3 ex-wives and a mortgage and a limp than it is to humiliate a 25-year-old without any responsibilities except to the firm. You want to blame someone for this? Blame your law school for accepting you. No one forced you into this game. No one pretended you would be employable. And don't think law is the only industry where this is an issue. Ask a 40-year-old TV writer. If you can find one. Or a 40-year-old exotic dancer. Don't see too many of those either, at least not at the summer associate strip club events. Maybe we just pick our venue carefully, but I've got to believe there's some pretty big age discrimination going on there too.

And it makes sense for largely the same reasons. No wants to see a 40-year-old doing document review, or taking off their clothes. It's just the way the world works.

Comments:
Nice job with this one. You are getting your edge back.
 
        
Great post! Funny and accurate. As a 39 year old about to start 1L in 6 weeks I feel it appropriate to comment:
I'm strong enough to work hard but smart enough to know I shouldn't do it for someone else (e.g. Big Law).
The forecast calls for solo or small partner practice with a chance of temporary government work when I'm fresh out of school (at 42!) if it was really really interesting.
 
        
Write more!! I miss reading you. As for those who don't like it, let them read somewhere else, don't ever change.
 
        
Now there's some truth in your writing!
 
        
Wow man!
teach me how to write like that.
Really incisive []
 
        
Oh crap, I'm old. This proves it.
 
        
This is one of the better posts in a while.
 
        
43#
发表于 2007-7-16 11:30:00 | 只看该作者
以下是引用frogette在2007-7-15 8:40:00的发言:

about age discrimination in law firms:

http://anonymouslawyer.blogspot.com/2007/06/i-received-e-mail-asking-me-to-comment.html

it's meant to be obnoxious, so take it with a grin of salt

From the link that frogette posted above:

"Maybe you're willing to work hard. But you're probably not willing to be humiliated, and honestly it's a lot less fun to humiliate a 40-year-old, with 2 kids and 3 ex-wives and a mortgage and a limp than it is to humiliate a 25-year-old without any responsibilities except to the firm. You want to blame someone for this? Blame your law school for accepting you. No one forced you into this game. No one pretended you would be employable. "


[此贴子已经被作者于2007-7-16 11:32:24编辑过]
44#
 楼主| 发表于 2007-7-16 23:05:00 | 只看该作者

看了大家的全部回帖,还读了FROGETTE的给的连接,终于明白了一件事.其实我的问题应该是关于读法律是否是更加要承受年龄歧视?因为换了任何专业或方向,快40了去读书都不好,完了后找工作也不容易.即便现在这个工作领域,我也不能容忍40多了还给30出头的人打工,更别想50多的时候.别人不开销我,我也会辞掉的.我的想法是以后如果能顺利转行,最后也会去SOLO.自己做主,即使少赚.

其实年龄大了有一点真的就不好,至少人都变的精明,世故,瞻前顾后.再也不会勇往直前了.但是路是人走出来的.COMMON-SENSE 是一回事,针对不同人,命运又是另一回事.只要是自己喜欢的,只要有条件,何不试试?人生是一趟没有回程的旅行.年轻人失败了有翻本的机会,年龄大了,就得看准了.所以我在在这里JJWW.但是,(又是但是),如果曾经想过,不试一下,甘心吗?

45#
发表于 2007-7-17 03:56:00 | 只看该作者

i feel i need to clarify that the anonymous lawyer link i posted is NOT supposed to be taken seriously. i appologize if it causes confusion--it's a sarcastic blog intended to mock all the ridiculous things going on in BigLaw. there's some truth to it, but it's not reality.

cbb2: i applaud your courage and wish you the best. you do kind of have age playing against you (i'm in your shoes), but you also have maturity, experience, and dedication on your side. i was in your situation exactly a year ago, and through talking to my law school friends, sitting in one law class, taking the LSAT, collaborating with a law prof, and watching Boston Legal of course (okay, kidding about this part)...i found a whole new world that i didn't know before--the rigidity of logic, law and economics theory, the power of law to chang society (look at the new chinese labor law), to name a few--and i love most of it. if you have doubts, perhaps try it out one step at a time, with incremental investment of time and other resources. i'll know as you go on. wish you luck.

46#
发表于 2007-7-17 05:05:00 | 只看该作者

It is not that you should not try. It is that Law might not turned out what you ahve expected and then you found it is too late. 

My mother is a doctor and I grew up, literally, in hospital. Believe it or not, when I was like 4 years old, my mother even brought me to the surgery room for an emergency (as nobody could take care of me at that time) and I watched the whole process of connecting a broken arm! I was so intrigued and wanted so much to be a doctor. But my mother said I was not suited to; so I missed it when I went to college( I could go to any medical school at that time).

After I came to US, I thought about medical school again, and again my mother pointed out I was just frustrated by this Permanant Head Damage (Ph.D.) process and talked to me like two days about what she had experienced and told me not to plunge into sth just because I have a beautiful mirage about it and I don't want face certain difficulties. Now I am on my way back to Law School (I attended law school in China) after such a long and wild detour, and fell at home, relaxing, finally.

 I thank my Mom, for she is right (Actually, she has been correct for almost every importance choices in my life. Sounds like a 'Mom's boy', Huh? But, you have to admit, those seniors are more penetrating).

Now I know I don't know what being a doctor is, and I don't have the characteristic for a doctor. And you know what, I am not the material for a scientist or artist either(I dreamed of being an actor). And I migh not enjoy those things any more if I start to make a living by it and have to face their ugly sides. I am just a bookworm that is, not good at creative work, but might not be bad at reading, writing, and following rules.


[此贴子已经被作者于2007-7-17 5:20:43编辑过]
47#
发表于 2007-7-17 05:33:00 | 只看该作者

it is like a toy for a kid: They really want it, they feel they are going to die or life is meaningless if they don't have it.  But they will laught at it after they grow up and look back: How could my care-free years be ruined by such a small toy?

Now our toys are big: a house, a career, fame, money...


[此贴子已经被作者于2007-7-17 5:33:34编辑过]
48#
 楼主| 发表于 2007-7-17 06:20:00 | 只看该作者

谢谢FROGETTE,分享你的经历和感受。也谢谢你的鼓励。

我相信每个人的观点都是对的,因为都是基于自身的知识经验和人生体验得来的。生活是多面镜,每个人看到的都不一样。也谢谢ZENGERL我很感谢大家分享自己的观点,人生经历和给出衷心建议。路还长,最终不论做出何种决定,都不会轻松。希望大家都好运。通过努力,实现自己的梦想。

49#
发表于 2007-7-17 06:21:00 | 只看该作者

楼主JJ,我不是不鼓励你去试,其实我是很佩服那些敢于尝试,敢于转行的人,美国有人退休之后才学画画,80岁时能成为知名画家。我去参加纽约律师资格考试的时候,看到一个老爷爷,老得路都差点走不动了,驼背到在背后看不见他的脑袋,还去考bar,我心里想他考过了也不能practice啊,可是老人家还是在一群年轻人中间很坦然的参加考试,我心里是很佩服他的。然而理想归理想,现实归现实,除非你可以不考虑现实,有多少人可以毫无负担地追求高等教育呢。读法学院本身就是参与一场竞争,这种竞争不是说你可以回避的,即使你选择solo practice. 美国的律师已经很多很多了,你觉得一个中国人做solo practice,他的优势在哪里呢?唐人街。只有唐人街和以华人为主的法律服务。我不是说唐人街律师不好,但是你一旦踏入这个领域,我敢保证没有多久你就会深深怀疑你当初的选择。你的客户包括要帮老婆移民不知道老婆叫什么名字的人,前一天才下飞机第二天就要办政治庇护的某省人,还有轮子,你的客户就是这些人,你可能也没有什么帮穷人维护正义的想法可言,因为你的客户个个谎话连篇,我不知道你敢不敢在文件上签上你自己的名字。没有错,你是你自己的boss,不会有老板会yell at你,但是你的客户会,对方律师会,对方律师的秘书可能也会,还有法官也会。我希望你考完lsat,读完3年法学院,考完bar之后,踏入solo practice之后,你不会后悔你自己的选择。

50#
发表于 2007-7-17 09:01:00 | 只看该作者
以下是引用purepig在2007-7-17 6:21:00的发言:

楼主JJ,我不是不鼓励你去试,其实我是很佩服那些敢于尝试,敢于转行的人,美国有人退休之后才学画画,80岁时能成为知名画家。我去参加纽约律师资格考试的时候,看到一个老爷爷,老得路都差点走不动了,驼背到在背后看不见他的脑袋,还去考bar,我心里想他考过了也不能practice啊,可是老人家还是在一群年轻人中间很坦然的参加考试,我心里是很佩服他的。然而理想归理想,现实归现实,除非你可以不考虑现实,有多少人可以毫无负担地追求高等教育呢。读法学院本身就是参与一场竞争,这种竞争不是说你可以回避的,即使你选择solo practice. 美国的律师已经很多很多了,你觉得一个中国人做solo practice,他的优势在哪里呢?唐人街。只有唐人街和以华人为主的法律服务。我不是说唐人街律师不好,但是你一旦踏入这个领域,我敢保证没有多久你就会深深怀疑你当初的选择。你的客户包括要帮老婆移民不知道老婆叫什么名字的人,前一天才下飞机第二天就要办政治庇护的某省人,还有轮子,你的客户就是这些人,你可能也没有什么帮穷人维护正义的想法可言,因为你的客户个个谎话连篇,我不知道你敢不敢在文件上签上你自己的名字。没有错,你是你自己的boss,不会有老板会yell at你,但是你的客户会,对方律师会,对方律师的秘书可能也会,还有法官也会。我希望你考完lsat,读完3年法学院,考完bar之后,踏入solo practice之后,你不会后悔你自己的选择。

"美国的律师已经很多很多了,你觉得一个中国人做solo practice,他的优势在哪里呢?唐人街。只有唐人街和以华人为主的法律服务。"

-- Maybe LZ doesn't need to be confined to solo practice in US? How about going back to HK/China after getting her JD?

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