大话西游之CR

wxd5118

c

wxd5118

此题编的比ETS有水平，好！

albert

I strongly support what braveMBA has said...We should discuss more classic questions from ETS, understanding what the trick is and what the error is in the question... Thank braveMBA very much for such useful question, which will certainly improve our skill of solving assumption problem in GMAT...

But I have one suggestion here... We could add one more condition in the passage to make the passage more tricky...
condition 1： 至尊宝从来不说梦话。

OK...I will discuss my understanding regarding such question to which one more conditon has been add...

we can easiy eliminate choice ABD..
E  if we make the choice nagative. That is 别的原因让他也说梦话, we can still hold the conclusion..

F Actually, I think F is a sufficient condition...according the premises in passage and  F, we can safely draw the conclusion..However, F is not a required condition, a precondition of assumption....The negative idea of choice F is that 说梦话不一定和欠钱有关。. If such nagative idea is TRUE, we can still make a final conclusion in the passage...

In summary, we are always confused with the sufficient condition and required condition in the argument...And this is one of the common tricks in the GMAT...Actually, I am always trapped in such tricks if the time is urgent. So we all need to be familiar with such trick... Anybody who has more such type of interesting questions please post here, we can discuss deeply, step by step, we will all grasp the essence and trick of such type of questions..

Any comment and suggestion is appreciated.

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-6-19 21:17:38编辑过]

albert

actually, required condition is a subset of sufficient condition...

for example, A ----> B  , if we totally have 3 assumptions: C,D,E for this argument.

then the minimal set of sufficient condition is a set including assumption CDE. However, sufficient condition can include more irrelevant element, such as F,G...So the sufficient condition can be {CDE} or {CDEFG}...or whatever...

Take  this example for an example, choice C: 猴子不是因为喜欢漂亮姑娘才叫她的名字.
is a subset of choice F: 说梦话一定是因为别人欠它钱..

so if we hesitate in 2 choice and can not make the decision, I would recommend you choose the weakist condition...However, I can not guarantee such decision is 100 percent correct. Just take you risk and choose such method only when you can't make sure which choice you should pick up.

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-6-19 21:35:38编辑过]

dl7801

" E  if we make the choice nagative. That is 别的原因让他也说梦话, we can still hold the conclusion..."

If we make the choice negative, that is 他从来都说梦话， 除非别人欠他钱（别人欠钱，他就不说梦话了）， we loose the conclusion totally, rather than "we can still hold the conclusion..." 。

“F Actually, I think F is a sufficient condition...according the premises in passage and  F, we can safely draw the conclusion..However, F is not a required condition......"

If we get the information that "至尊宝himself is one of the 很少梦话的人",  I can agree with your opinion that "F is a sufficient condition" . But which sentence implies such information? If  至尊宝 is not 很少梦话的人, chioce F will be unsufficient.

"I strongly support what braveMBA has said...We should discuss more classic questions from ETS, understanding what the trick is and what the error is in the question..."

I agree with what you said here, except that of the chioce C.  Could you give me your reasoning how the Chioce C establishes a connection between " 至尊宝说梦话" and " 紫霞一定欠他钱".  
According to your point, "至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，才在梦中叫她更多遍." must be necessary, in other words that must be a required condition,  to the 菩提老祖's reasoning.  why? 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，, but he possibly 更恨紫霞, 才在梦中叫她更多遍or some reasons else; why 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞 is required? and how can
菩提老祖 need such assumption 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，才在梦中叫她更多遍 to get the conlusion 紫霞一定欠他钱? How can chioce C make the connection between "至尊宝梦中叫紫霞" and "紫霞一定欠他钱"?
This is the typical ETS"s trick between " supporting" and " assumption" .

welcome to dispute my views.

braveMBA

有这么多讨论，真高兴。我的观点：
1、ASSUMPTION必须是必要条件，无论式B-A模式还是A-B模式，这是我们容易犯的错误
2、关于NOT WEAKEN，一定是在必要条件的前提下去WEAKEN
3、ASSUMPTION除了是证明A-B之间有联系以外，还有排除它因，或者说A存在，有时假设和加强不是十分严格的，假设也是加强的一种
我觉得DL7801和ALBERT的都对，可能是题目出的不严密，主要是大家可以讨论。我接着想想加强和削弱吧，当然我自己觉得假设最TRICKY。

lqlucas

各位的讨论，使我对GMAT-CR又加深了理解，谢谢！
我个人的体会是：
C：应该是support 的选项（“取非”后否定原结论）；
本题问assumption,我觉得 E 更好（because it build up a bridge between the evidence and the conclusion）。

braveMBA

+ Not, if weaken the conclusion, it should be assumption

joywzy

bravemba ,换个头像吧.

albert

以下是引用dl7801在2003-6-19 21:56:00的发言：
" E  if we make the choice nagative. That is 别的原因让他也说梦话, we can still hold the conclusion..."

If we make the choice negative, that is 他从来都说梦话， 除非别人欠他钱（别人欠钱，他就不说梦话了）， we loose the conclusion totally, rather than "we can still hold the conclusion..." 。

“F Actually, I think F is a sufficient condition...according the premises in passage and  F, we can safely draw the conclusion..However, F is not a required condition......"

If we get the information that "至尊宝himself is one of the 很少梦话的人",  I can agree with your opinion that "F is a sufficient condition" . But which sentence implies such information? If  至尊宝 is not 很少梦话的人, chioce F will be unsufficient.

"I strongly support what braveMBA has said...We should discuss more classic questions from ETS, understanding what the trick is and what the error is in the question..."

I agree with what you said here, except that of the chioce C.  Could you give me your reasoning how the Chioce C establishes a connection between " 至尊宝说梦话" and " 紫霞一定欠他钱".  
According to your point, "至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，才在梦中叫她更多遍." must be necessary, in other words that must be a required condition,  to the 菩提老祖's reasoning.  why? 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，, but he possibly 更恨紫霞, 才在梦中叫她更多遍or some reasons else; why 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞 is required? and how can
菩提老祖 need such assumption 至尊宝不是因为更喜欢紫霞，才在梦中叫她更多遍 to get the conlusion 紫霞一定欠他钱? How can chioce C make the connection between "至尊宝梦中叫紫霞" and "紫霞一定欠他钱"?
This is the typical ETS"s trick between " supporting" and " assumption" .

welcome to dispute my views.

Thank you for your reminding... I made a mistake yesterday...
I think C and E is both assumption...that means they are required condition...
But F is not assumption...if one more condition is added to the passage: 猴子很少说梦话....then F will become a required condition...

how you guy think about it?
any comment is welcome!

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-6-21 5:52:31编辑过]