What is success

yaoyao99

How did we get off track?  I think it's cmnstlyng's fault.

cmnstlyng

以下是引用yaoyao99在2007-4-6 3:54:00的发言：

How did we get off track?  I think it's cmnstlyng's fault.

what you mean? it ties nicely with the topic of this thread, 7 sins is what 携隐's been implying all along.

glzhao

以下是引用pplpp在2007-4-6 3:54:00的发言：

对这种事情，我倒更愿意从人性化的角度去考虑。

但是大家想过没有，对他自己呢？牺牲可能很大很大，作为一个个体的人，我更愿意尊重他个性化的选择，每个人都有选择自己生活的权力，而且应当得到别人的尊重。

It's a complicated issue, and obvious there are those who didn't intend to put themselves in this situation.  Yes, we should consider how tough it is for this individual, but that still doesn't give him the right to purposedly lie, especially if (this is a big if, and this is the part where I have the strongest objection, if true) this individual came to the US planning to not finish his/her PhD, and only wanted to take advantage of the stipend and scholarships the program offers.

This is no better than those who either falsify their academic records in order to gain admission or those who plagiarize in order to earn a degree.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-4-6 4:00:00编辑过]

携隐

pplpp，能出国念PHD的有几个会“等着饿死”，“一家老小跟着受苦”啊？出国对他们来说不是生计而是另外一种选择。而且我说的“不对”是从ethics角度，不是从个人判断角度啊。

Job market好，是教授的那封信提到的。现在的market很好，所以拿到master以后就立刻工作去了。

关于愚忠的问题，不是针对你，不过好像也有人误会我认为美国很好。我真的不知道为什么给人留下这种印象。我比较关心中国存在的问题，是因为我care啊，我忧心啊。就像父母，不会一天到晚夸小孩这里好那里好，而总是忧心忡忡于小孩身上的毛病（汗，这个比喻有点过分，呵呵，不过我想说的是，爱之深才会恨之切啊）。美国有美国的问题，不过没必要花这个时间去研究讨论啊，除非对中国有借鉴意义。不是一天到晚骂美国才是爱国啊，积极探询美国做的好的地方，分析中国哪些可以借鉴，才是比较down to earth的做法吧。

pplpp

以下是引用glzhao在2007-4-6 3:21:00的发言：

Unfortunately, this is not just one case... this has occurred on multiple occassions in recent years.

Of course, these cases represent an extremely small percentage of the PhD students, and I have the utmost admiration for many of the ones I have met and with whom I have become friends.  But it's the bad apples that spoil the barrel.----- 这点可能是因为国人还没习惯以个体的眼光看同胞吧，天赋人权，尊重别人和别人所选的他们自己的道路吧，他/们不是为我们活着，虽然他们是我们的同类。

Partly agree with you.

所以我想强调的还是尊重个体自己的选择，也许是最浅显的所谓人权。

提倡大家就事论事，畅所欲言，不扣帽子。

glzhao

以下是引用pplpp在2007-4-6 4:02:00的发言：

Partly agree with you.

所以我想强调的还是尊重个体自己的选择，也许是最浅显的所谓人权。

提倡大家就事论事，畅所欲言，不扣帽子。

I think we are having a candid discussion and reasonable debate here, which is rare given the stuff on CD lately. hehe.

As for Human Rights, I think the one of the considerations of basic human rights is that you rights and those of others are equal, so if you, in your pursuit of your individual rights, knowingly harm the rights of others, then your pursuit is no longer legitimate and without fault.

携隐

他们有选择的自由，我们有评论的自由，呵呵。这跟尊重不尊重他们的选择无关，他们的选择也不会因为我们说了就改变。

Life is not perfect。国内气氛不好，没有机会，所以呢？每个做学术的都要往外跑，想尽一切办法拿身份赚钱？你说大家要爱国，这些人的行为，却是在为后来的人设置壁垒啊。

cmnstlyng

I do believe it's unethical, it amounts to exploitation of the system and the resource. Others can respect their choice of not pursuing the program, but the resource/money these people have taken up could have well spent on others who are genuinely interested in pursuing the PHD. You can't blame people for changing their mind if their original intention was to finish the program, but for people who do go for PHD with the intention of not finishing it, their action is unethical.

The only thing I disagree with LZ is that I believe the problem is not that serious.

pplpp

以下是引用glzhao在2007-4-6 3:59:00的发言：

It's a complicated issue, and obvious there are those who didn't intend to put themselves in this situation. 

Yes, we should consider how tough it is for this individual, but that still doesn't give him the right to purposedly lie, especially if (this is a big if, and this is the part where I have the strongest objection, if true---如果为真，我也强烈反对) this individual came to the US planning to not finish his/her PhD, and only wanted to take advantage of the stipend and scholarships the program offers.-----恶意本原假设，对他自己来说，他投资的是时间，也是他的生命，你觉得在他来美国之前就会存在 purposedly，planning to not finish his/her PhD, only wanted to take advantage of the stipend and scholarships the program offers？

This is no better than those who either falsify their academic records in order to gain admission or those who plagiarize in order to earn a degree.-------如果是针对你的假设，得出此结论，我同意

希望各位以动态的眼光看问题， 一般来说PhD要 4~5年，事情是会变化的

就像一个人申请 MBA 时的 career goal 是 General management,

可也许毕业的时候兴趣转到了IB上,

那么回头看看

是不是就因为申请时候和最后工作的时候的goal不同,

就是道德出现了问题?  就是lying?  就是cheating?

还是那句话，把帽子摘了吧，世界是动态的

glzhao

This is a bad comparison. MBAs usually finish their degree, MBAs don't have to lie to an advisor, since they don't usually have one.

I don't mind if you change your mind, and have genuine concerns afterwards... but it's hard to believe that so many would change their mind, and then renege on their promise. I am sure each year some non-Chinese students also don't finidh their PhD and choose to go work, but there is a reason that Chinese students' behavior drew the type of reaction from the professors... on more than one occassion at more than one school, I might add.