these和they的区别以及单独指代

rpch2004

up

nemo11

以下是引用AlienX在2008-7-23 10:31:00的发言：
nemo11, 有很大的區別.
比如說:
Apple and orange are good, and I eat them everyday.
Apple and orange are good, and I eat these everyday.

Hmm...看了Garner's Modern American Usage, 它說如果在these/this後的名詞是很明顯的話, 那個名詞可省...可是A中的these要修的noun我不覺得很明顯.

多谢AlienX的回答

them是宾格形式，肯定是做宾语。

而these是代词，代词类似于名词，即可作主语也可作宾语。

但是这道题these是代词还是形容词呢？所谓的this/that/these不能单独指代又是什么样的情形呢？

AlienX

According to 115的explanation implies that 'these'只能做形容詞....
所以prep 34的答案有點不consistent with the explanation for 115...

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-23 23:07:47编辑过]

丫丫兔

Gmat 真让人费神，脑细胞都不知道死了好多，关键是还无结果

rpch2004

以下是引用AlienX在2008-7-23 23:07:00的发言：
According to 115的explanation implies that 'these'只能做形容詞....
所以prep 34的答案有點不consistent with the explanation for 115...

115??

哪个资料上的115？

AlienX

OG 11th (Yellow) #115

nemo11

them是特制，这里特指the poor这些人。

而these是泛指，these 根those是一类词，所以会经常看到在比较结构中用those来代替前边出现过的词，而不用they，they就是特制。

open to discussion

rpch2004

查到白勇语法253页：

代词it\this\that都不能指代整个句子；

代词this\that\these不能单独充当主语，必须加上名词才能做主语；

大家注意：

目前确认的是根据og11(黄)的115题说these不能单独做宾语（“These cannot act as a direct object”）

不确认的是these是否能单独做主语：

（1）根据1楼的prep34说可以

（2）BY语法说不行

大家还能找到别的these充当主语的对或错的题目吗？

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-24 11:33:41编辑过]

aeoluseros

朗文字典的解释：

these:
the plural of this

this:

1
used to refer to a person, thing, idea etc that has just been mentioned or to something that has just happened
We must make sure this doesn't happen again. Is there any way of solving these problems? If young Daly continues to improve at this rate, he'll soon be in the A Team. This will be discussed in the next chapter. This boyfriend of yours - how old is he?

they
1
used to refer to two or more people or things that have already been mentioned or are already known about
Bob and Sue said they wouldn't be able to come. Ken gave me some flowers. Aren't they beautiful? They all want to come to the wedding.

these可以指人，物或想法，they只能指人或物

Besides adding complementary flavors to many foods, hot sauces stimulate the release of endorphins in the brain, just as exercise does, and these have a pain-relieving effect like morphine's.

题目里用的是these have, 所以these指代的一定是物了...不是 endorphins就是hot sauces。既然如此为什么不用they而用these呢?我认为原因在于these和they的区别，是不是they会有歧义指代到hot sauces,而these不会有歧义呢？

可以看上面的解释

these是"has just been mentioned or to something that has just happened"关键词在"just"，而they的解释关键词在"already"

这里endorphins 是just mentioned的，hot sauces和endorphins 都是already mentioned的。所以用they 有歧义，用these不会有歧义。

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至于115的句子，为什么说作为直接宾语时不能用these呢？

George Sand (Aurore Lucile Dupin) was one of the first European writers to consider the rural poor to be legitimate subjects for literature and portray
    these with sympathy and respect in her novels.

原题正确答案是E

(E) legitimate subjects for literature and to portray them

且把them改为these

George Sand (Aurore Lucile Dupin) was one of the first European writers to consider the rural poor legitimate subjects for literature and to portray these with sympathy and respect in her novels.

如果用these，可能指代前面的整个idea（ consider the rural poor legitimate subjects for literature ）或者legitimate subjects，而不是 the rural poor 了。

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我认为these指代出现错误的根本原因可能就在于此吧，不过最好能再有these做直接宾语时是错误的的题目。

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-24 12:48:11编辑过]

rpch2004

to ls:

1。这里endorphins 是just mentioned的，hot sauces和endorphins 都是already mentioned的。所以用they 有歧义，用these不会有歧义。"

你说endorphins到底是just mentioned还是already mentioned？还有，二者的判断标准是什么呢？

2。同意的所说的these指代idea来解释og115

3。ls是怎么看白勇语法的这条规则：

白勇语法253页：

代词this\that\these不能单独充当主语，必须加上名词才能做主语；

白勇语法253页：

代词this\that\these不能单独充当主语，必须加上名词才能做主语；

白勇语法253页：

代词this\that\these不能单独充当主语，必须加上名词才能做主语；

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-24 13:18:19编辑过]