Is this breaking News?

ucla · 发表于 2005-4-4 16:45:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用adios在2005-4-4 14:38:00的发言： <

> <

>don't you think you worry to much? <

>why CCTV9 should report the Pope's death? is the Pope Chinese? i thought CCTV9 is a window to tell the world about china, or anything related to china, is it? <

>or you think CCTV9 should compete with CNN in terms of report range, etc.?</DIV> Sorry, I forgot to tell you what I watched is CCTV9 "World Wide Watch" programme.

leafye · 发表于 2005-4-4 17:31:00

<

>I am sorry, but people like me even don't know who is "

ope" if there is no such discussion...

zouweiyao · 发表于 2005-4-5 11:36:00

Pope is a freedom fighter, showing his strong humanity and generosity. This is why he does not get so big exposure in China media.

eutopia · 发表于 2005-4-5 12:12:00

Especially he is opposing communism, that's why he was barred from China. So that's what I don't understand. Why a religious figure should get involved into politics? Just like Christian vicar was trying to control Chinese government and used religion as a colonization weapon. I would argue how much they really cared about the local people's life and how much they really cared about the resources and virgin land there... Maybe I am too much biased by Marxism.

zouweiyao · 发表于 2005-4-5 12:15:00

<

>transfer another article here, Bush, Putin and other over 100 country leader all will attend the mourning ceremony of Pope. Why the death of Pope is not a break news? <

>天主教教宗若望．保禄二世的丧礼将在8日举行，预计超过两百万教友及数百位各国元首将亲自来梵蒂冈向教宗道别。 　　 白宫发言人麦克雷兰4月4日说，美国总统布什和第一夫人劳拉将亲自出席已故天主教教宗若望保禄二世的葬礼。布什4月2日赞扬教宗是“历史上伟大的道德领袖之一”，也是“时代的英雄”。曾带领波兰“团结工联”推翻该国共产政权的诺贝尔和平奖得主华勒沙高度评价教宗对共产主义体制的洞烛入微，以及协助瓦解欧洲的共产政权。前往参加教宗丧礼的还包括俄罗斯总统普京及西班牙国王卡洛斯夫妇等各国政要显贵人士。 　　 意大利政府已开始在各机场、火车站及高速公路实施严格安检措施，意大利军机不断在罗马上空巡逻，梵蒂冈附近也部署了地对空飞弹，以防恐怖份子趁机发动攻击。据报导，意大利将动员一万五千名警察和士兵严防事故，葬礼当天，罗马空域关闭，喷射机与直升机全面待命。 <

>大批信徒抵达罗马 　　 梵蒂冈枢机主教团4月4日在教宗蒙主宠召后首次集会证实，将按传统将教宗葬在梵蒂冈圣伯多禄大殿，而非葬于家乡波兰。据报导，墓穴施工已开始，葬礼将在圣伯多禄广场以多幅大型户外银幕转播。 　　 目前已有大批信徒陆续抵达罗马，准备前往圣伯多禄大教堂瞻仰教宗遗容，罗马市内各旅馆房间都已被预订一空，价格更是水涨船高。为解决住宿问题，罗马市政府决定在体育馆和大学操场内架设帐棚或简单床位，以供未能事先安排好住处的信徒休息。 　　 教宗的祖国波兰预计有逾两百辆巴士开往罗马，意大利政府已呼吁原定于近日内发动的数场运输业罢工延期举行。 　　 与此同时，红衣大主教们还将在今后一段时间一方面负责管理教廷日常事务、一方面准备选举新一任教皇。据专家介绍，目前教廷共有红衣大主教近200人，他们均可以参与选举前的议事日程；不过，最终只有118人年龄低于80岁，有资格投票选举新的教皇。 <

>中国两名神职人员被捕 　　 在罗马教宗若望保禄二世弥留之际，中共上星期逮捕了两位年长的中国天主教神职人姚亮（音）大主教和王锦凌（音）神父。美国之音引述设在美国的人权组织“龚品梅枢机主教基金会”说，在拘留前，80多岁的姚亮大主教受到政府越来越大的压力，要求他和教宗断绝关系，参加中国官方的天主教会。 　　 星期一，中共官方天主教会在北京南教堂为辞世的教宗举行追思弥撒，中共表示希望在下一任教宗期间跟梵蒂冈改善关系。 　　 研究梵蒂冈问题的分析人士说，其实双方实现关系正常化的最大障碍是共产党领导人拒绝让梵蒂冈像对其它国家那样在中国任命主教，北京希望下一任教宗能放弃这个要求。不过分析人士说，这个问题恰恰是罗马天主教教义的核心。 　　 信仰无神论的中共一直禁止人们效忠梵蒂冈，并最终未能让教宗若望保禄二世实现他访问中国的愿望。

thomas2007 · 发表于 2005-4-5 13:24:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用adios在2005-4-3 15:10:00的发言： <

> <

>i beg to differ. <

>this is not about "freedom of religion". people in china have the freedom to believe in different religions. would you agree? yes? no? or you want to talk more about FLG? <

>Do you really believe it true that Chinese have right of free belief and expression? The most vivid counter-example is Tian An Men movement in June 1989. Even the Vanticans are not allowed to spread Roman Catholics in China because of so-called self administered religion. <

>plus, i don't think any catholic figures should be allowed to visit china. especially the Vatican is so eager to force and push chinese gorvenment and chinese catholic church to admit Vatican's authority. <

>Rather, it is Chinese government is so eager to transform Catholic churches to be places that promotes Maxism. It is under long term governmental propoganda of communisism that most Chinses refuses to accept either Christianity or Catholics. Who has ever paid careful study of those religions before casting doubts over them? <

>why doesn't Vatican ask the same thing from brits? dare it Vatican? <

>to me, roman catholic church came to china with fire and blood, along with the gorvenments backed them. there are good spirits among them, but lots of them served as the weapon and spy. <

>Again, before you charged the accusation, please consult the history or the essentials of Catholics. Did you read bibles, ten testements? Did you carrried out a serious study over them? If not, shut up! Do you have any hard evidence of charging someone in the church as a spy? <

>to me, roman catholic church brings me the memory of humilation to china and chinese people. it reminds me the 100+ people who got killed in Tianjin, reminds me the hundreds of thousands people killed during the period when the eight countries invaded china to surpress the so-called "boxer rebellion". before Vatican sincerely apologize for its wrongdoings, no one pope or any bishop/archbishops should be allowed to visit china. Again, what you can offer is the single sided governmental propoganda. Why Vaticans should apologize for their unverified charges? if someone wants to argue "yes the Pope did apologize", then let me show you how did the Pope "apologize" to the chinese people for all the bad things the roman catholic church committed for the past 150 years: "I feel deep sadness for these errors and limits of the past and I regret that for many people these failings may have given the impression of a lack of respect and esteem for the Chinese people on the part of the Catholic Church…for all this I ask the forgiveness and understanding of those who may have felt hurt in some way by such actions on the part of Christians." and this 71-word is all the sympathy he showed for the many chinese lifes perished. tell me about sin. I am a Christian and would be very happy to share you some information on sin, if you are open enough to listen. </DIV>

kiki1 · 发表于 2005-4-5 14:41:00

<

>自己要别人open enough to listen, 却要别人shut up?<

>每种宗教都有它令人敬仰的地方，但是有个事情这里说说，Vatican 之所以没有和中国这里搞好，主要是台湾问题吧？Vatican是25个承认台湾独立的政府之一！

adios · 发表于 2005-4-5 16:58:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-5 12:15:00的发言： <

>天主教教宗若望．保禄二世的丧礼将在8日举行，预计超过两百万教友及数百位各国元首将亲自来梵蒂冈向教宗道别。 <

>FLG has more than 30 million followers. does this make FLG better? i don't know. 100 idiots add up does not equal to one wise man. enough said. so don't use "number of people" as something sounds very "logical" <

>“时代的英雄”。曾带领波兰“团结工联”推翻该国共产政权的诺贝尔和平奖得主华勒沙高度评价教宗对共产主义体制的洞烛入微，以及协助瓦解欧洲的共产政权。前往参加 <

>sure. as a matter of fact, rumor says the Pope was elected to "peacefully convert" Poland. <

>研究梵蒂冈问题的分析人士说，其实双方实现关系正常化的最大障碍是共产党领导人拒绝让梵蒂冈像对其它国家那样在中国任命主教，北京希望下一任教宗能放弃这个要求。不过分析人士说，这个问题恰恰是罗马天主教教义的核心。 <

>this is Bull Shit. Why Chinese Catholic Church has to follow Vatican's order? <

>As I asked earlier, dare Vatican ask England the same thing? <

>Oh sadly yes it did in 1531. But Henry the VIII kicked Vatican's ass and drove the Roman out. <

>Note: not that i wanted to use bold/red font, but apparently you have marked your "important" lines in your post, and i am just following your style..</DIV> <div align="right">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-5 17:24:21编辑过]</div>

adios · 发表于 2005-4-5 17:18:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用thomas2007在2005-4-5 13:24:00的发言： <

>Do you really believe it true that Chinese have right of free belief and expression? The most vivid counter-example is Tian An Men movement in June 1989. Even the Vanticans are not allowed to spread Roman Catholics in China because of so-called self administered religion. <

>excuse me. what's 1989 get anything to do with religious belief? don't get drifted away from the original topic. <

>let along FLG for a while, could you tell me how has CCP surpressed religious belief since 1978? tell me. <

>and what's wrong with "self administered religion"? as i asked in my previous post, why every christian church has to listen to Rome? dare Vatican ask England to go back to Roman Catholic Church system? the answer is a Yes, and Henry the Eighth kicked Vatican out in 1531. <

>btw don't give me this "Tian An Men movement in June 1989", never, ever again. almost sounded like you participated in it. while i was in college, were you wearing diaper then, dude? <

>Rather, it is Chinese government is so eager to transform Catholic churches to be places that promotes Maxism. It is under long term governmental propoganda of communisism that most Chinses refuses to accept either Christianity or Catholics. Who has ever paid careful study of those religions before casting doubts over them? <

>this is lie. answer my question first: tell me one example that CCP tried to surpress "religious belief" since 1978. CCP only tries to reinforce Patriotism, but not Maxism to Catholics/Christians. <

>and let me tell you something: law is the law. don't try to tell me something which is against the law (at that time or now) as an example. <

>Again, before you charged the accusation, please consult the history or the essentials of Catholics. Did you read bibles, ten testements? Did you carrried out a serious study over them? If not, shut up! Do you have any hard evidence of charging someone in the church as a spy? <

>you sounded like most of the smartasses i have met. but here is my advice as i usually gave them: before you tell someone else to shut up, play safe sex and go screw yourself. Again, what you can offer is the single sided governmental propoganda. Why Vaticans should apologize for their unverified charges? funny. i have lived in the States for almost 8 years now and rarely even had the chance to listen/watch "governmental propaganda". oh yeah, you can say that i was "brain-washed" so completely that even after 8 years i still believe in what government fed me. i won't be surprised at all. have you ever studied what has happened for the past 150 years, and how priests had played such roles? not only in China, look at American Indians. i recommand you read few books if you don't believe anything in Chinese. read P. H. Scott: History of the Conquest of Peru, and History of the Conquest of Mexico. i am surprised by myself that i would even spend time arguing with such idiotic comments "Do you have any hard evidence of charging someone in the church as a spy". but you don't need to believe me. 'coz based on my experience, most of those "true religious believers" are crippled on humanities, and usually they only believe in what have been "blessed" by church. tell you what Chinese people call those "Chinese Christians": "吃教的". well, again i guess you will not know what does that mean. give you a clue, read 鲁迅准风月谈, 吃教: 　　耶稣教传入中国，教徒自以为信教，而教外的小百姓却都叫他们是“吃教”的。这两个字，真是提出了教徒的“精神”，也可以包括大多数的儒释道教之流的信者，也可以移用于许多“吃革命饭”的老英雄。 　　清朝人称八股文为“敲门砖”，因为得到功名，就如打开了门，砖即无用。近年则有杂志上的所谓“主张”。《现代评论》之出盘，不是为了迫压，倒因为这派作者的飞腾；《新月》的冷落，是老社员都“爬”了上去，和月亮距离远起来了。这种东西，我们为要和“敲门砖”区别，称之为“上天梯”罢。 and what is "unverified charges"? as i said, who should study the history before speak out? don't read just bible. it's 2000-year's old. and i don't even need to dig deeper, let me do an easy job since you are either too blind or too lazy. feel free to resposne and defend your position - tell me some "truth" which can defeat those accusations. cut/paste: "义和团运动发生之前，意大利教士郭西德在陕西宁强传教。他在燕子砭地方吸收当地恶霸、地痞、流氓入教，以扩充教会势力，强土地修教堂。 　　郭西德最为人不齿的是在当地定下“初夜权”的恶例。他规定教民之女出嫁前须到教堂去“领洗”，结果犹如西欧中世纪的“初夜权”一样，凡去者，皆遭蹂躏癚污。当地平民潘长富、郑干仁、举人杨海等人的妻子在出嫁时均遭郭西德的癚污。教堂还规定教民要把女儿送入教堂供教士们玩弄。当地民人姜凤翔对教会及教士的劣迹十分痛恨，在教堂墙上写了几句骂教士的话，教士就勾结地方官，硬逼姜把十五岁的女儿送到教堂去。 　　郭西德在当地引起极大民愤，光绪二十六年某日傍晚，燕子砭四乡百姓三百馀人，手持灯笼火把斧头长矛，齐集燕子砭教堂，郭西德闻迅出逃，被追击的百姓发现後将其处死。後来，清政府逮捕了不少参与此次“燕子砭教案”的民众，为首的李云林、杨海等六人，在押解省城西安途中被杀害，然後将人头送回燕子砭在街上悬首示众。 　　有一位被“封圣”的刘方济，是西班牙传教士。他於一六四二年和另一位西班牙传教士一起从?湾来福建传教。刘等人在传教中?用各种手段拉拢、引诱当地农民入教，特别是发展年轻女教徒，造成家庭不和，夫妻离散。 　　福安下邳村有一已订婚的青年陈姓教徒，刘要发展她为“守贞女”，就诱骗她不要出嫁，威逼其未婚夫写了退婚书，而後又把她拐带外逃。这件事当时激起当地群众的公愤，纷纷起来揭发刘的罪行，?联名向官府控告。清政府遂於一六四七年（顺治四年）十一月十三日以“专事宣传邪道，煽惑良民，外装守贞不娶，其实拐骗妇女，放荡无耻，曾和城外某寡妇通癚，?且有了私生女”，将刘方济捉获归案，?於一六四八年处死。 　　马赖癚污妇女勾结土匪 　　法国传教士马赖是梵蒂冈此次册封的“圣人”之一。一八五二年，他违反清政府不得在内地传教的禁令，私自睶入广西西林县传教。据载，马赖入境时，既未经有关部门同意，也未经地方当局办理入境登记，因而是不合法的行为。 　　西林县的壮、苗、彝、汉族都有祀奉祖先的风俗，而马赖却严令受洗的教徒拆除家中的祖先神位，不?上坟拜祖，因而造成许多家庭、宗族纠纷。他还借机癚污女教徒。据了解，马神父从贵州带来一个年轻漂亮的曹姓寡妇，名义上是帮助传教，实际上是他的姘妇；马神父?不以此为满足，他还千方百计引诱长相较好的妇女入教，时常单独和这些妇女在一起鬼混。 　　此外，马赖还勾结土匪，欺压百姓，一八五六年二月廿九日，知县张鸣凤将马赖等不法教徒逮捕归案，?判处死刑。法国政府以此次“西林教案”为借口，与英国组成联军发动了第二次鸦片战争。最後强迫清政府签订了《天津条约》，赔款二百万银两，该条约首次规定“天主教教士得入内地自由传教”。" I am a Christian and would be very happy to share you some information on sin, if you are open enough to listen i have no single interest to discuss any Christianity related issues with you. i have enough knowledge and attitude more than you have ever displayed in your post. usually i don't judge people by their religious belief, but to you, i have one thing for you. and consider this a warning, while one hand you telling people "shut up" and the other hand gave us such a pharisaical gesture as "open enough to listen".   "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"- Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laurel Winner, Physics, 1979</DIV> <div align="right">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-5 18:06:01编辑过]</div>

thomas2007 · 发表于 2005-4-5 20:52:00

<

>To adios:<

>what's 1989 get anything to do with religious belief? don't get drifted away from the original topic<

>Tell me, what's the 1989 TianAnMen movement for? Democracy, Human Rights, Freedom of Speech and Expression, which, of course includes freedom of belief. <

>let along FLG for a while, could you tell me how has CCP surpressed religious belief since 1978? tell me. <

>Have you ever read of articles on " secret underground churches in China"? If not yet, just type this into the google and you will be astonished at how many articles you will find! In addition, I have several friends who are christians and attend such secret underground churches regularly. One question, if there is freedom of belief, then why they choose the secret ones? Further, you may go to the internet and find the "White Paper on human rights issue and religious problems in China" in the Congress Libriary section as you are now in the states.<

>btw don't give me this "Tian An Men movement in June 1989", never, ever again. almost sounded like you participated in it. while i was in college, were you wearing diaper then, dude?<

>Sounds you are quite aged and experienced, actually you are not. Since if you think and argue rationally and raise concrete examples and do not engaged in meaningless insulting, which might make you sound like nothing but a barking dog, I shall pay more respect to you. <

>CCP only tries to reinforce Patriotism, but not Maxism to Catholics/Christians.<

>and let me tell you something: law is the law. don't try to tell me something which is against the law (at that time or now) as an example.<

>How? by 10 years of cultural revolution? by constantly cultivating a left-wing political environment? by continual efforts of the People's Daily's hollow editorials? what on hell is against the law? higher ranking officials dirty hands on public funds or people's right to speak! If students' demonstration on freedom and human rights is a violation of law, then is it a legitimate action to abuse the public money raised by tax-payers?you sounded like most of the smartasses i have met. but here is my advice as i usually gave them: before you tell someone else to shut up, play safe sex and go screw yourself.No comment. But a well educated gentleman or lady in North America should not speak or write in that way.funny. i have lived in the States for almost 8 years now and rarely even had the chance to listen/watch "governmental propaganda". oh yeah, you can say that i was "brain-washed" so completely that even after 8 years i still believe in what government fed me. i won't be surprised at all.have you ever studied what has happened for the past 150 years, and how priests had played such roles? not only in China, look at American Indians. i recommand you read few books if you don't believe anything in Chinese.I can not tell either. Perhaps, after 8 years of living in US, the most democratic country on this planet, you are quite fed up with the experience and would like to join the welcoming hands of CPP to show that you are patriotic. Or if you are now a green card holder and would like to deter your followers to follow suit so that you may enjoy the previlliged status. Ironically, however, I have been living in this land of dictatorship for 30 more years and been brainwashed for ages, but I am still craving for freedom! So I decided to immigrate and leave this country FOR EVER!Fine, I will be very glad to read your recommended materials on line, if you could name some.i am surprised by myself that i would even spend time arguing with such idiotic comments "Do you have any hard evidence of charging someone in the church as a spy". but you don't need to believe me. 'coz based on my experience, most of those "true religious believers" are crippled on humanities, and usually they only believe in what have been "blessed" by church.Again, no comment. Since if you don't believe in God, there is no God in you and hence you are not blessed. But be careful, the mere fact that you don't believe in the existence of God doesn't guarantee that there is no God existed at all.Show me some example of how those dedicated believers are crippled on humanities, otherwise I will treat it as another labelling slogan.

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