Is this breaking News?

freeflying

<>这几天所有新闻都是这个, 可是俺一点都不感兴趣. 有个穆斯林听说我什么宗教都没有, 吓坏了. 天天教导我你得相信有神在. 哈哈, 我实在受不了一种宗教的压力, 我想要是我生活在穆斯林国家, 可能早被他们烦得CONVERT了.</P><>中国从来就是儒学占主导的国家, 对外来文化有强大的同化力. 就算是马克思主义, 老师天天唱, 我们有几个人信呢? 还不如来句"父母在, 不远游" 让我感慨万千. </P><>认识一个在这边长大的ABC, 现在整天让我跟他讲老子和孔子, 可怜的人, 不会读中文, 看的老子学说全是英文译本. 也不知道那些人怎么翻译的, " 道非道, 非常道" 中的"道"居然翻成"TRUE WAY", 他楞是看不明白, 后来我说应该翻成"TRUTH" 好一些, 他即刻明白了. 他说他要CONVERT 成"道家", 看他内心没有一种文化支撑的彷徨, 我想让小孩生在北美长在北美可能不是件好事.</P><>中国思想和文化流传了几千年, 世界上也是极少有的, 自有它的生命力和价值. 我相信它可以给中国带来新的希望, 而不是其它根植于西方文明的"民主"WHATEVER. 在这边呆了几年, 花花绿绿的民主故事看了很多.&nbsp;&nbsp;我觉得中国人会信这一套吗? </P><> 至于它如何的变革, 我却不知道了. </P>

eutopia

I used to argue that we need freedom of choosing ideology, speech, religious belief etc.etc... but now I don't agree with it anymore. Religion, democracy, sovereignty are all surrender to political power graving purpose; once you have the political power, you have the access to armed forces. Power is son of gun in revolution era; vice versa in peace and so-called democratic era. So I don't belong to the angry generation any more. China is going the way it should, with tolerance and courtesy though we don't have so-called "democracy". Japan has democracy, Taiwan has democracy, U.S. has democracy,,, just look at what they have done these days ...

Integrity

<>Thomas, I admire you so much. </P><>ope is a hero and is respected by the world. Although I am not a Catholic but a little toward Christ. </P>

adios

<DIV class=quote><B>以下是引用<I>thomas2007</I>在2005-4-5 20:52:00的发言：</B><br /><><FONT color=#ee1111>Tell me, what's the 1989 TianAnMen movement for? Democracy, Human Rights, Freedom of Speech and Expression, which, of course includes freedom of belief. </FONT></P><br /><>don't dodge my question: </P><br /><>what does 1989 get anything to do with "freedom of religion"? </P><br /><>there is no such thing "of course". i have never seen anyone during 1989 called for "freedom of religion". so don't try to mislead anyone here.</P><br /><><FONT color=#e6421a>Have you ever read of articles on " secret underground churches in China"? If not yet, just type this into the google and you will be astonished at how many articles you will find! In addition, I have several friends who are christians and attend such secret underground churches regularly. One question, if there is freedom of belief, then why they choose the secret ones? Further, you may go to the internet and find the "White Paper on human rights issue and religious problems in China" in the Congress Libriary section as you are now in the states.</FONT></P><br /><>LOL. again, your case proved me statement: you are the type who only believes in anything written in English. and yes, that is what i called "crippled". </P><br /><>you can read, and maybe read well. but the problem is you can not think. can not think independently. </P><br /><>think about it, before you you reach this "conclusion" about "secret underground church". that was such an infamous report which has been analyzed many times by other people to show you how the western does the propaganda, and now you are telling me that is the truth.</P><br /><><FONT color=#e61a1a>Sounds you are quite aged and experienced, actually you are not. Since if you think and argue rationally and raise concrete examples and do not engaged in meaningless insulting, which might make you sound like nothing but a barking dog, I shall pay more respect to you. </FONT></P><br /><>why do i care about how do you think about me? ridiculous. who the hell you think you are?</P><br /><P>you are the one who wanted others to "shut up" at the first place. and you are telling me "respect"? funny.</P><br /><P><FONT color=#e61a1a>what on hell is against the law? higher ranking officials dirty hands on public funds or people's right to speak! If students' demonstration on freedom and human rights is a violation of law, then is it a legitimate action to abuse the public money raised by tax-payers?</FONT></P><br /><P>tell me about the National Guards killing university students during the anti-Vietname war movement. </P><br /><P>that is called "the law is the law".</P><br /><P><FONT color=#f73809>No comment. But a well educated gentleman or lady in North America should not speak or write in that way.</FONT></P><br /><P>only if to someone i respect. and you are not one of them.</P><br /><P><FONT color=#f70909>Ironically, however, I have been living in this land of dictatorship for 30 more years and been brainwashed for ages, but I am still craving for freedom! So I decided to immigrate and leave this country FOR EVER!</FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#000000>tell you what: because you have only lived in one world, you will never be able to make any unbiased judgement. </FONT></P><br /><P>come to the States and live for some time. and go back revisit your conclusion. i don't blame you.</P><br /><P><FONT color=#f70909>Fine, I will be very glad to read your recommended materials on line, if you could name some.</FONT></P><br /><P>again, don't dodge. i have already named two. both from prestigious "American" scholar back to 1850. have you heard of P.H.Scott? apparently not. or maybe you will even tell me he was a communist too, huh?</P><br /><P><FONT color=#f70909>Again, no comment. Since if you don't believe in God, there is no God in you and hence you are not blessed. But be careful, the mere fact that you don't believe in the existence of God doesn't guarantee that there is no God existed at all.</FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#000000>LOL. who told you i don't believe in God? don't assume too much.</FONT></P>and i am here to challenge you one more time:</DIV><br /><DIV class=quote>I have quoted several examples to back my statement (those posted in Chinese), where are your examples to back yours? </DIV><br /><DIV class=quote>find your materials and come back, i am waiting here. dare you? don't give me any trash talk, just evidence. </DIV><br /><DIV class=quote>if you say they never did "spy" etc., find something which can support your statement, alright? </DIV><br /><DIV class=quote>who is the barking dog here can only shout, but has nothing to support it? </DIV><br /><br /><br /><div align="right"><font color="#000066">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 9:16:56编辑过]</font></div>

adios

<CENTER><B>对美国之音一则报道的技术分析</B></CENTER><br />　　　　　　　　　　　　　　－冬　雨－ <br />　　　　　　　　　　　　　一九九七年七月 <br /><br />　　摘要：　本文试图以一则报道为例，对美国之音所使用的信息深加工 <br />　　　　　　技术进行了初步分析，并对信息的授受双方提出了建议。 <br />　　关键词：美国之音、信息、深加工 <br /><br />一、引言 <br /><br />　　作者曾是美国之音的忠实听众，深知美国之音在中国政治生活中的重要影响， <br />认为有必要对其影响听众的精湛技术进行分析。使听众能更好地从美国之音获取信 <br />息，同时也给中国传播媒介提供学习的参考。此外声明：本文仅作技术方面的分析 <br />，不涉及道德或价值判断。 <br /><br />二、引报道全文 <br /><br />VOA report:　CHINA /CHRISTIAN <br />June 5, 1997 (舒茨奥报道) <br /><br />　　　　　　　　◇◇中国政府加紧镇压地下基督教◇◇ <br />　　人权组织「自由之家」表示，中国政府加紧镇压中国的地下基督教，镇压包括 <br />监禁和折磨。「自由之家」上个月在中国五个省秘密会见了地下基督教的成员。加 <br />拿大多伦多基督教学院的马歇尔教授是这批「自由之家」考察人员的领队。他说， <br />１９９４年开始中国当局对基督徒的镇压活动在一年前升级了。马歇尔说，「人们 <br />对我们说，现在对地下教会成员的普遍处罚是三年劳改。地下教会的牧师或领导人 <br />初犯时可能被处以这样刑罚。」据保守的估计，中国信奉基督教的人大约有五千万 <br />，这个数字是１９９０年估计数字的三倍。他认为，这个数字的爆炸性增长可以解 <br />释为什么当局最近大规模镇压基督徒。马歇尔说，这是在中国唯一一个遍布全国各 <br />地的组织。这个组织不受官方控制。中国政府非常害怕任何不在官方控制之内的活 <br />动在全国展开。 <br /><br />三、单句分析 <br /><br />　　１、“他说，１９９４年开始中国当局对基督徒的镇压活动在一年前升级了” <br /><br />　　这句有语病，所指的镇压升级时间可猜测为：９３年、９４年或９６年。 <br /><br />　　２、“人们对我们说，现在对地下教会成员的普遍处罚是三年劳改。地下教会 <br />的牧师或领导人初犯时可能被处以这样刑罚。” <br /><br />　　前后两句互相矛盾。确切地说，前一句描述的情形非常严峻，后一句则轻微得 <br />多。前一句处罚的范围含混不清，怎样处罚很清楚。后一句相反，处罚的范围很清 <br />楚，怎样处罚却含混不清。接受哪句取决於听众的心态和对实际情况的了解。另外 <br />，以前是什么处罚没有说。这本来是不应该遗漏的，因为标题和前面有两句话提到 <br />镇压的“加紧”和“升级”。（另注：后一句使用了“可能”字眼，使得这句话永 <br />远不会成为谎言） <br /><br />　　３、“据保守的估计，中国信奉基督教的人大约有五千万，这个数字是１９９ <br />０年估计数字的三倍” <br /><br />　　这里引入了一个实际上没有什么关系的数据：中国基督徒总数的估计值，但是 <br />这个数据具有强烈的暗示效果。照常理报道更应该给出的是地下基督徒的估计数字 <br />。（本文讨论的对象是地下基督徒，给出的数字却是中国基督徒，这里实际上故意 <br />让人理解为中国基督徒都是地下基督徒） <br /><br />　　４、“他认为，这个数字的爆炸性增长可以解释为什么当局最近大规模镇压基 <br />督徒” <br /><br />　　如果稍微注意一点，我们会发现这是一个（不知道来源的）估计数字的爆炸性 <br />增长。虽然报道没有说明这个估计数字的增长是否涉及地下教会，然而马歇尔根据 <br />它作出的推断暗示这个爆炸性增长是属于地下教会的，同时也暗示这个五千万的估 <br />计数字有很大比例是属于地下教会的。 <br /><br />　　５、“马歇尔说，这是在中国唯一一个遍布全国各地的组织。这个组织不受官 <br />方控制。中国政府非常害怕任何不在官方控制之内的活动在全国展开。” <br /><br />　　报道未提供任何事实支持第一句断语，第二、三两句毫无疑问是正确的。报道 <br />将它们这样组合在一起，起到暗示其因果关系的作用。但是仔细想一下就会知道这 <br />个因果关系是不存在的。即：中国政府肯定会严厉镇压不受官方控制的全国性组织 <br />，并不能证明遭到严厉镇压的就一定是“遍布全国各地的组织”。 <br /><br />四、整体分析 <br /><br />　　听了这条报道后我们有这样的印象：（１）中国的地下教会在爆炸性增长；（ <br />２）中国政府对它的镇压行动急剧升级；（３）千百万基督徒正面严厉处罚。 <br /><br />　　下表列出此报道为这三条消息提供的５个“Ｗ”。 <br /><br />项　　目　｜　　消息（１）　　　消息（２）　　　　　消息（３） <br />－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－ <br />Ｗｈｏ　　｜　　　无　　　　　　　无　　　　　　　　　注１ <br />Ｗｈｅｎ　｜　　　无　　　９３、９４或９６年　　　　　现在 <br />Ｗｈｅｒｅ｜　　　无　　　　　　　不详　　　　　　　　不详 <br />Ｗｈｙ　　｜　　　无　　　爆炸性增长，即消息１　害怕全国性地下组织 <br />Ｈｏｗ　　｜　　　无　　　　　　　无　　　　　　　　三年劳改 <br />－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－ <br />注１：报道中给出两种，Ａ：地下教会成员，普遍；Ｂ：地下教会的牧师或领导人 <br />初犯时，可能。另外没有提供受处罚人数规模的信息。 <br /><br />五、讨论 <br /><br />　　从上述分析中我们看到，报道所提供的可供验证的信息只有：地下教会的牧师 <br />或领导人初犯时可能被处以三年劳改。由於其中的“可能”二字，其被证伪的可能 <br />性非常小。就是说这篇报道可证伪性非常小。如果我们认定，信息的价值正比於其 <br />可证伪性，那么这篇报道作为信息来说其价值非常小。 <br /><br />　　从另一个角度看，这篇报道可以十分成功地在听众头脑中建立起上面说的三个 <br />结论。当然这种成功的程度因人而异，还要取决於此人对中国情况、中国教会情况 <br />以及中国地下教会情况的了解程度和对美国之音的信任程度等。 <br /><br />　　怎么样用最少的信息去最大限度地改变人的想法，这是一门技巧性非常高的信 <br />息深加工技术，也可以称之为改变别人思想的技术。从以上的分析我们看到，美国 <br />之音的这个技术应用得非常成功，令人赞叹。在这短短３００字的报道中用到的技 <br />术有：暗示（三：３、４）、逻辑圈套（三：５）、对语句进行模糊处理（“可能 <br />”等词的使用）、似乎无心的遗漏（三：２）、对常识的巧妙应用（三：５）以及 <br />看上去象是无意识的错误（三：２、可能还有１）等等。可以说美国之音对这种技 <br />术的娴熟掌握、巧妙而高超的应用，已经到了炉火纯青的地步。 <br /><br />　　我们还应该注意到，美国之音非常关心自己的声誉，在科技、经济、文化等大 <br />量中立的消息上做到忠实报道。不做任何直接威胁自己声誉的事，即使在进行信息 <br />深加工时也以不直接损害自己的声誉为原则，不使自己陷於尴尬境地。这样长期积 <br />累了“公正”形象。如此这般，在关键问题上就可以最大限度地发挥影响力。 <br /><br />　　美国不愧是当今世界高技术的最大拥有者。美国的战略家声称，美国将使用其 <br />在硬件和软件两方面的优势为美国的国家利益服务。硬件优势包括：军事、科技、 <br />经济等，从外部强制性地改变别人的行为；软件优势包括：文化、舆论、意识形态 <br />等，通过改变别人的思想从而改变别人的行为。美国之音的这篇报道说明她忠实地 <br />执行和出色地完成了美国政府的任务，成功地实现了美国战略家的构想。 <br /><br />六、建议 <br /><br />给信息授者： <br /><br />　　与美国之音这样的西方传媒相比，中国的传播媒介普遍存在信息深加工技术粗 <br />糙、低劣的现象，给人的印象是：蠢、笨、差。因此对於中国那些希望对信息进行 <br />深度加工的部门，非常有必要借鉴、学习和引进以美国之音为代表的西方先进的信 <br />息深加工技术。 <br /><br />　　不过请注意，世上有言：弄巧成拙。因此我还有一个更好的建议：诚实。这不 <br />是一个道德建议，而是一个技术建议。因为诚实是最好的技术、最高的智慧，对一 <br />个人而言是如此，对一个传媒而言也是如此。 <br /><br />　　因为：“人不可自欺。你们中间若有人在这世界自以为有智慧，倒不如变作愚 <br />拙，好成为有智慧的。因这世界的智慧，在神看是愚拙。如经上记著说：『主叫有 <br />智慧的，中了自己的诡计』；又说：『主知道智慧人的意念是虚妄的。』”。 <br /><br />　　正是：“大智若愚，大巧不工”。 <br /><br />给信息受者： <br /><br />　　作为个人，没有力量去改变背後有着强大政府、强大财团的媒体的行为，因此 <br />，对於希望获取真实准确信息的人，有必要充分发掘和应用自己的分析、鉴别和思 <br />考能力，以抵御越来越精致的信息深加工技术对真实的扭曲。毕竟每个人是自己思 <br />想的责任者、受益者和受害者。许多时候，存疑不失为一种没有办法的办法。 <br /><br />七、致献 <br /><br />　　谨以此文献给所有美国之音的忠实听众。

adios

<>so here i am challenging you, <IMG src="http://forum.chasedream.com/Skins/Default/emot/em07.gif"></P><br /><>apparently you look down to "emotional" behavior, so i guess you could be very "rational".</P><br /><>however i have never seen you posted ANY materials to support your points.</P><br /><>at least i have something to back me up, where is your "truth"? <IMG src="http://forum.chasedream.com/Skins/Default/emot/em01.gif"></P><br /><div align="right"><font color="#000066">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 9:52:24编辑过]</font></div>

thomas2007

Officials with the Chinese government have shut down 125 churches as part of a continuing crackdown on religious activity outside the control of the communist regime. <br /><br /><br /><br />The crackdown began in July and has cut off about 3,000 Christians in China from places of worship. Todd Nettleton of Voice of the Martyrs says China may claim that it is tolerant of religious expression, but the facts prove otherwise.<br /><br />"The Chinese government wants to be open towards Christians who are willing to come under control of the government. They expect Protestant Christians to worship as part of the ... state-approved Protestant Church organization there," Nettleton says.<br /><br />The VOM spokesman notes that since the official Christian churches in China are restricted in doctrine and practice, the majority of Chinese Christians participate in underground churches. However, he says the Chinese government considers all Christian churches outside the official government-controlled Three Self Patriotic Movement (TSPM) to be subversive.<br /><br />"There's a lot of Christians in China who aren't willing to come under that kind of control," Nettleton says, "and so they are forced into underground or house churches. And, as we see from this report that 125 church buildings have been destroyed, it's obvious the Chinese government is not very happy about the growth of the house church."<br /><br />The house church movement in China, which comprises approximately 90% of the nation's Christians, faces unimaginable persecution but remains committed to preaching the gospel. In 1998, leaders of the movement publicly called on the Communist government for the first time to officially recognize house churches. But the government continues to persecute believers under the rubric of its "strike-hard" policy, an ostensible crackdown on criminals that is actually hardest on Christians. China's government puts more Christians in prison or under detention than any other country and confiscates loads of church property and Bibles -- even official, government-printed Bibles.<br /><br />Nettleton encourages American Christians to write or call the Chinese Embassy in Washington, DC, and encourage them to give more freedom to the underground church movement.<br /><br />Allie Martin<br />Agape Press<br /><br /><FONT color=#ee3d11>-At the request of someone who is asking for facts or data to support my claim, here it is! (see how the freedom of religion is in China, it is funny though that someone even claimed that China has never interfered or suppressed this freedom since 1978.)</FONT>

zouweiyao

<>关于教会问题, 49年后, zf关了教皇任命的大主教30年, 理由为"间谍"罪, 到中国同西方关系改善后, 该人质才释放.</P><>关于不与教皇国建交的问题, 最新的记者会上zf说教皇国必须不"干涉内政". 中国宪法上是有宗教自由的,教皇是天主徒的精神领袖, 主教是教皇任命的教区代表, 这是哪门子"干涉内政"? 难道说教皇想来中国从政不成? 天主教千年来都有任命大主教的传统, 即使是前共产党国如波兰和今天撒哈拉以南的很多独裁国都允许派主教的啊.</P><>世界上只有PRC才会有这个借口啊. 即使是美国这种一号"霸权"国也允许有主教在. 他们有个关于"干涉内政"的经典故事. 60年代肯匿迪与尼克松竞选总统, 有人问肯, 你是天主徒, 是忠于教皇还是美国. 肯尼迪说我首先是美国人. </P><>今天, 很多人都逼得不想做中国人了, (刚看电视, 20多人冒着生命危险偷渡洛山肌), 聪明的政治家应该自己检讨为什么. 而不是采用堵水的方法来趟臂挡车. 借用朱容基先生关于89年事情的一句话, "历史会告诉真相". 历史会对一个朝代做客观评论的.</P>

adios

<>i can't stop laughing.</P><br /><>"Agape Press".</P><br /><>hmmm... yammy.</P><br /><>but if you go to <a href="http://www.agapepress.org/" target="_blank" ><a href="http://www.agapepress.org/" target="_blank">http://www.agapepress.org/</a></A>, it reads: "Reliable News from a Christian Source"</P><br /><>and if you read carefully about this VOM (as stands for Voice of the Martyrs, LOL, what kind of "news" is this):</P><br /><>"The Chinese government wants to be open towards Christians who are willing to come under control of the government. "</P><br /><>so give me an example that any government in this world would allow any Christians who dare not not to come under the control of the government?</P><br /><>"They expect Protestant Christians to worship as part of the ... state-approved Protestant Church organization there,"</P><br /><>i am getting bored with your continuous dodging:</P><br /><>tell me about England. is its church system under Vatican, or under its own control?! i think you are little bit coward to answer this question.</P><br /><P>and read this: "The house church movement in China, which comprises approximately 90% of the nation's Christians"</P><br /><P>i call Nettleton a big fat liar. but i won't tell you why now. hint: how many Christians belong to the so-called "state-controlled" church. you do the math. </P><br /><P>as i said once, you can read, but you can not think. sad.</P><br /><div align="right"><font color="#000066">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 11:26:39编辑过]</font></div>

adios

<DIV class=quote><B>以下是引用<I>zouweiyao</I>在2005-4-6 10:19:00的发言：</B><br /><>关于教会问题, 49年后, zf关了教皇任命的大主教30年, 理由为"间谍"罪, 到中国同西方关系改善后, 该人质才释放.</P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>so was he a spy or not? you have some "emotional" words, but you didn't give anything else. </FONT></P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>what's the story from the beginning to the end? what's the evidence government used to accuse this bishop? any materials from your side to counter the accusation? </FONT></P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>can you answer any of these questions?</FONT></P><br /><>关于不与教皇国建交的问题, 最新的记者会上zf说教皇国必须不"干涉内政". 中国宪法上是有宗教自由的,教皇是天主徒的精神领袖, 主教是教皇任命的教区代表, 这是哪门子"干涉内政"? 难道说教皇想来中国从政不成? 天主教千年来都有任命大主教的传统, 即使是前共产党国如波兰和今天撒哈拉以南的很多独裁国都允许派主教的啊.</P><br /><>世界上只有PRC才会有这个借口啊. 即使是美国这种一号"霸权"国也允许有主教在. 他们有个关于"干涉内政"的经典故事. 60年代肯匿迪与尼克松竞选总统, 有人问肯, 你是天主徒, 是忠于教皇还是美国. 肯尼迪说我首先是美国人. </P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>i don't understand why you guys are such cowards. </FONT></P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>i asked many times, and here i ask again: </FONT></P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>what the heck is happening in England? oh no. what the heck with England since 1531?!</FONT></P><br /><><FONT color=#ff0000>England didn't get ANY ONE bishop addigned from Rome since 1531. where is your consciousnese? should you help England first? </FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#ff0000>oh geee, poor brits, they must be so brain-washed. </FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#ff0000>tell me. anyone. i dare you to answer this question, and compare it w/ China.</FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#ff0000>why China has to be as Poland or whatever "Sahara" dictatorship? why China can't go the same route as England? </FONT></P><br /><P><FONT color=#ff0000>i dare you. no, i double dare you, none of you can give me a sound reason to support your statement.</FONT></P><br /><P>今天, 很多人都逼得不想做中国人了, (刚看电视, 20多人冒着生命危险偷渡洛山肌), 聪明的政治家应该自己检讨为什么. 而不是采用堵水的方法来趟臂挡车. 借用朱容基先生关于89年事情的一句话, "历史会告诉真相". 历史会对一个朝代做客观评论的.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>again, funny. tens of thousands of illegal immigrants from mexico smuggle into USA everyday. i though Mexico is a democratic country? or maybe actually it is remotely controlled by CCP?</FONT></DIV><br /><DIV class=quote><FONT color=#ff0000>dare you to answer why? </FONT></DIV><br /><br /><br /><div align="right"><font color="#000066">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 12:00:44编辑过]</font></div>