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adios · 发表于 2005-4-6 14:27:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-6 13:42:00的发言： <

> <

>You seem the brain-washed guy by government. <

>yes, and here comes again. <

>"brain-washed". good. loud and sound. <

>i can't stop thinking the irony of this. <

>i wish i could get brain-washed by the government. <

>but i beg your pardon. <

>i was the last batch to join the CY, and i was never a CCP, and i was out of the country since 1997, and i never read any chinese "main-stream" media, and yet you are telling me i was "brain-washed". funny how. <

>but i understand your frustration. labeling people is the easiest thing to do. anything against your opinion, "You seem the brain-washed guy by government.". again, i don't blame you. <

>but i am shameful for God has such kind of believer. England is still a Christ country today and the king is the leader of their own Church. It does not do any harm to believe God in the cause of prompting democracy, Instead there are many God-believers make big devotion to fighting for freedom and democracy. don't dodge my question: why can't chinese church go the same route as England did back to 1531? why chinese church has to follow Vatican's order? and i have to again, point out how stupid your statement is. "It does not do any harm to believe God in the cause of prompting democracy". what does your statement get anything to do with 500 years ago when Henry VIII kicked out the Pope? were you implying back then GB was a democratic country? if not, what's your sentence get anything to do with our arguement? Do you know Bishop Tutu in South Africa, who helps end the racism government and won the Nobel? Do you know Teresa in India, who helps many poors and also get world fame? They are loyal catholists of 20 century.  If you do not know these men, go to library again. Does Bishop Tutu and Mother Teresa get anything to do with our argument? i beg your pardon, could you at least learn to focus, pal? we are talking about "why Chinese church has to follow Vatican". if Bishop Tutu wants to follow Rome, that is fine. i don't care. but are you implying that since they both are faithful to Roman Catholic Church, then we Chinese have to follow them as well? heck, tutu is black, can you dark your skin to black? You like to give examples 500 years ago. A little ridiculous. Church exists over 2000 years and it develops . How do you think what Church did 500 years  ago seems that is is my turn to suggest "you read some books". i can't believe a so-called Catholic telling me that Church has existed for over 2,000 years. dude, you have some serious issues. you are not talking about Jewish temples, are you? you are not talking about Buddaism temples, are you? is equal to what they do today? Could not you  say to Chinese that US is still a slavery country because there were slaves in US before 1860s? That is so funny. don't be a coward. just tell me why Chinese church can't follow the brits. i am fed up with your circling around.</DIV>

adios · 发表于 2005-4-6 14:36:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-6 14:25:00的发言： </DIV> <

>   post another article about the funeral of Pope here. Even some dicators as the president of Syria, an Islamic beliver,  will attend the funeral of Pope. Hero for freedom and peace is always a hero. <DIV class=quote>posting the news once it is called "news". posting the news twice it is called "boring". and you are posting eventaully the same thing three times. i haven't thought out a good name for that yet. but for sure i can tell it is way beyond boring.</DIV> <DIV class=quote>you need to learn to respect the others. </DIV> <DIV class=quote>not everyone is interested in this kind of news - not saying the Pope is not a great personal figure. </DIV> <DIV class=quote>even though you may love the Pope so much, there is no need to post the same thing again, and again, and again.</DIV> <DIV class=quote>this is called hijacking the thread.</DIV> <DIV class=quote>religion is a very personal thing. so please don't share your passion with others uninvited.</DIV>

eutopia · 发表于 2005-4-6 14:41:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用thomas2007在2005-4-6 13:04:00的发言： <

> <

>Allow me to say: You are an another pathetic fellow brainwashed by CPP and unwilling to know the truth. Your hollow statement is a reciprical of those once familiar emotional appeal cited from our accustomed daily editorials by the government controlled newspaper-"

eople's Daily". One more misconception from your statement-motherland is different from government. I love this country, but not necessarily the government. <

></DIV> <

> <

>If citing something written by anybody out there could be an evidence of having a brain, sorry to say that I don't want that brain!! I was just like you a few years ago when I was a student reading Newsweek from my library and was shocked by knowing all those astounding news about China ! Now I am grown up and learn to think by my own experience and knowledge. I still like what I heard from BBC : Democracy is not Cokecola. You do get different flavor of democracy in different places; Try listening to what Iraq and Lebanon civilians say about that armed Bull trying to gang with so-called democratic party and sticking finger into the resourceful middle-east Pie by sending troops or takeing privilege of those areas' geographical strategy importance... This is a world of grabbing resources and geographical politics ! Think big and think long! not just copying and pasting! <div align="right">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 15:38:44编辑过]</div>

kiki1 · 发表于 2005-4-6 14:44:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-6 10:19:00的发言： <

>关于教会问题, 49年后, zf关了教皇任命的大主教30年, 理由为"间谍"罪, 到中国同西方关系改善后, 该人质才释放. <

>关于不与教皇国建交的问题, 最新的记者会上zf说教皇国必须不"干涉内政". 中国宪法上是有宗教自由的,教皇是天主徒的精神领袖, 主教是教皇任命的教区代表, 这是哪门子"干涉内政"? 难道说教皇想来中国从政不成? 天主教千年来都有任命大主教的传统, 即使是前共产党国如波兰和今天撒哈拉以南的很多独裁国都允许派主教的啊. <

>世界上只有PRC才会有这个借口啊. 即使是美国这种一号"霸权"国也允许有主教在. 他们有个关于"干涉内政"的经典故事. 60年代肯匿迪与尼克松竞选总统, 有人问肯, 你是天主徒, 是忠于教皇还是美国. 肯尼迪说我首先是美国人. <

>今天, 很多人都逼得不想做中国人了, (刚看电视, 20多人冒着生命危险偷渡洛山肌), 聪明的政治家应该自己检讨为什么. 而不是采用堵水的方法来趟臂挡车. 借用朱容基先生关于89年事情的一句话, "历史会告诉真相". 历史会对一个朝代做客观评论的.</DIV> 我看是你不想做中国人了吧？你早早说就是了，要不要我提前关照大家？

zouweiyao · 发表于 2005-4-6 15:54:00

<

><div class="maxcode-quote">why chinese church has to follow Vatican's order?</div><

>You change the topics here, dude. <

>

eople has the freedom to believe his own relegion, even CCP's Law confirm it. <

>Just like Tibet follow Dala, Islamicst follow their own Ali, and Catholist follow Pope. No wrong here, just relegion freedom. <

>If you hope to belive your own god, and build your own Brtain-style church, nobody blame you. It is your freedom. But for a Catholists, their spirit leader is Pope. Many Chinese is willing to be catholists and they attend the secret church. <

>Is it enough for you to understand?

adios · 发表于 2005-4-6 16:21:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-6 15:54:00的发言： <

>? <

>You change the topics here, dude. <

>

eople has the freedom to believe his own relegion, even CCP's Law confirm it. <

>Just like Tibet follow Dala, Islamicst follow their own Ali, and Catholist follow Pope. No wrong here, just relegion freedom. <

>If you hope to belive your own god, and build your own Brtain-style church, nobody blame you. It is your freedom. But for a Catholists, their spirit leader is Pope. Many Chinese is willing to be catholists and they attend the secret church. <

>Is it enough for you to understand? </DIV> <

> <

>it is certainly enough to show your arrogance and ignorance. <

>here is ur original words, and u were using this as evidence to support your logic why the Pope must ber allowed to name his own bishop/archbishop in china: "天主教千年来都有任命大主教的传统, 即使是前共产党国如波兰和今天撒哈拉以南的很多独裁国都允许派主教的啊. 世界上只有PRC才会有这个借口啊. 即使是美国这种一号"霸权"国也允许有主教在. 他们有个关于"干涉内政"的经典故事. 60年代肯匿迪与尼克松竞选总统, 有人问肯, 你是天主徒, 是忠于教皇还是美国. 肯尼迪说我首先是美国人." so tell me, what's the difference when 500 years ago the Pope was kicked out of England? weren't those brits Catholics once? i am sorry that after many post exchanges you couldn't even understand what the opponents were talking about. alright, let me phrase it for you to make your life eaiser: 1. in the history, there are many cases new things born, like the Calvinist, like the Protestants, like the King Henry VIII broke away from Roman Catholic Church, for varies reasons, political, religious difference, etc. 2. to use your logic: you said "since Tutu is such a great man who is also loyal to the Pope, so we must do that as well", then by the same tokem - even it is so stupid - i can say "since British can break away from Vatican, and they are such a democratic country, so CCP can do the same thing break away from Vatican" 3. there were many wrong-doings Roman Catholic Church has done to the Chinese. before the Pope apologize, i agree with the CCP that no Pope should be allowed to intervern Chinese Catholic system 4. Pope has well-known anti-communism attitude. China is a CCP ruling country. so why should CCP invite a anti-communist to intervern China affairs? Dare you go to the States and tell Bush Jr. "i hate American ideology, and i want your government system die one day"? you can try. but i am pretty sure you will end up in jail. and btw you need to learn a little bit more about islamic. only 10% of the muslim follow Ali or his descendents.

zouweiyao · 发表于 2005-4-6 18:56:00

<

><div class="maxcode-quote">to use your logic: you said "since Tutu is such a great man who is also loyal to the Pope, so we must do that as well", then by the same tokem - even it is so stupid - i can say "since British can break away from Vatican, and they are such a democratic country, so CCP can do the same thing break away from Vatican"</div><

>How do you conclude such result?  I have no time to quarrel with a confused mind any more. <

>My opion about Cathlic is clear: Catholic Church is making obvious progresses in the 20 century, compared to those days in the mid-age.  THERE ARE such world famous guys as Tutu and  Telisa, of course including this passed Pope. Believing Catholic or other religion is your freedom, which is guranteed by the CCP"s law. But for the  Catholists, their spirit leader is Pope, and the tradition is that Pope appoints Bishop as his representive to all Catholic districts. <

>Democratic countries, racism countries, dicatative countries, islamic countries and former communist countries all respect the tradition of Catholists and let Pope appoints Bishop. Of course, our country is another case.

thomas2007 · 发表于 2005-4-6 22:53:00

<

>did i say that you were cursing? funny<

>Interesting comment. then refer back to your statement-as a natural step, i think you will start cursing me go to hell,-shall I call you a shameless liar in this regard? Besides, it is not uncommon to see several contradictory statements in your arguement, a phenominen often seen on those so-called ardent believer of Maxism. <

>but don't call yourself a patriot. 'coz it is funny to hear from someone who just said few minutes ag "So I decided to immigrate and leave this country FOR EVER".<

>it is indeed a genius that i called you a pharisee.<

>Unlike you, I never claimed that I am a pratriot. As I said, I will leave this country for ever since I can not see any positive sign of restoring human rights, freedom of speech and religion in this country in the foreseeable future. I am honest, unlike someone, who might be speaking as sweetly as be singing. Who knows whether you are a green card holder? Who knows what you will do if the country is in perilous status?

jnpcomm · 发表于 2005-4-6 23:18:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用zouweiyao在2005-4-6 14:25:00的发言： <

>   post another article about the funeral of Pope here. Even some dicators as the president of Syria, an Islamic beliver,  will attend the funeral of Pope. Hero for freedom and peace is always a hero. <

>教宗若望保禄二世的葬礼将于八日举行，预期将会有更多朝圣信徒和国家元首等贵宾涌入罗马，为迎接空前人潮，上紧发条的罗马当局早已树立起层层防护网，包括罗马上空划为禁飞区以及部署防空飞弹等。波兰外交部表示，预料约有二百万波兰人将赶往罗马参加这位波兰出生教宗的葬礼。 各种人潮管制措施早已在现场落实执行，市政府备妥帐篷和营地，供无法觅得投宿处所的成千上万信徒暂时栖身。 <

>数以千计增援警力陆续自意大利全国各地驰抵罗马，有关当局对场面会如何演变，根本拿捏不准。大部分人预期将会有二百万信徒涌入，但也有人认为总人?赡芨叽锼陌偻颉?lt;/P> <

> 各种人潮管制措施早已在现场落实执行，市政府备妥帐篷和营地，供无法觅得投宿处所的成千上万信徒暂时栖身(Getty Images) <

>波兰外交部发言人表示，估计约有二百万波兰人将会赶往罗马，这是波兰政府针对旅行业者进行非正式调查所得的数据。 <

>波兰各地教区正忙着包租巴士，运送信徒至罗马参加周五的教宗葬礼。此外，当局也正在安排加开波兰往意大利的火车和飞机班次。 <

>负责统筹协调教宗葬礼期间罗马维安的柏托拉索表示，“我们未掌握到任何确切人数估计，我们必须不断随机应变。” <

>朝圣信徒如潮水般涌来，其中不乏携睡袋赶来者，向这位历来出访最频繁教宗致敬。若望保禄二世在教宗任上曾走访过全球一百二十九个国家和地区，宣扬和平及团结理念。 <

>预定出席教宗葬礼的世界领袖包括美国总统布希和叙利亚总统阿塞德等，此番势必会成为梵蒂冈有史以来最星光闪耀的葬礼。 <

>一九七八年举行的教宗若望保禄一世葬礼，当时仅一百零五位贵宾出席，美国代表团由卡特总统的夫人率领，卡特本人未亲自出席。 为保护名流显贵，当局将在葬礼期间关闭罗马领空。意大利空军表示，将部署防空飞弹和动用北约侦察机。意大利曾于二○○一年主办八大工业国高峰会期间采取类似保安措施。 但以往的经验，恐不足以应付空前庞大人潮。空中旅行开销越来越低廉，势必会吸引更多最后一刻动身的朝圣信徒。奥地利航空公司今天推出飞罗马特别廉价机票，教宗的祖国波兰境内信徒也忙着安排包机事宜。 罗马的基础设施和各种人潮管制作业早已呈现吃紧现象，有一名乌克兰妇女本周末因心脏病发作不治，另有不少人在圣伯多禄广场周边杂沓人潮中昏倒。 </DIV> 不知道你贴这文章什么意思，参加葬礼的人多就伟大? 照这样说，参加老毛，老邓的葬礼比这多多了，他们不是更伟大？当然，个人认为他们比这个教皇伟大，起码他们改变了十几亿人中国人的命运. 如果哪天悼念拉登的人也比这人多，你猜美国到时会不会让CNN来个全程直播？ <div align="right">[此贴子已经被作者于2005-4-6 23:21:35编辑过]</div>

thomas2007 · 发表于 2005-4-6 23:21:00

<

>If citing something written by anybody out there could be an evidence of having a brain, sorry to say that I don't want that brain!! I was just like you a few years ago when I was a student reading Newsweek from my library and was shocked by knowing all those astounding news about China ! Now I am grown up and learn to think by my own experience and knowledge. I still like what I heard from BBC : Democracy is not Cokecola. You do get different flavor of democracy in different places; Try listening to what Iraq and Lebanon civilians say about that armed Bull trying to gang with so-called democratic party and sticking finger into the resourceful middle-east Pie by sending troops or takeing privilege of those areas' geographical strategy importance... This is a world of grabbing resources and geographical politics ! Think big and think long! not just copying and pasting!<

>Your comments reminded me of those typical lines from the governmental controlled media, repeatedly stressing the importance of "geographical politics". Next, your advice is to think strategically. Fine. Let me tell you a simple fact: civilians do not care politics, whether Maxism or Capitalism. But if you are to deprive of their own human rights and freedom of speech, then you are in great trouble. Ordinary minds can not think strategically since they do not share the previllege of abusing public funds as they wish! It is true that democracy is not everything, but without it, we are far worse off. Maybe you don't agree with me, and you may prefer the Starling period of long term dark iron curtin cloaking all the truths and being suppressed with a ruthless firm hand.-I am sure 99% of the current widsom is against you. Then, let's talk about Iraq. Can't you see that the Iraqis are now enjoying more freedom than the period when they were ruled by Sadam Hussain?At least, the Kurtians won't be afraid of being poisoned by chemical gases only because they want to be independent. Finally, I really have no comment on your first sentence. The fact that I cite the passage from the internet does not tell you in any way that I want to demonstrate that I have my own brain to think. I am really astonished at how those so called patriots are yelling hollow political propaganda without clear thoughts and sensible reasoning. Is that the purpose of CPP's brain washing movement?

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