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Chinese people drag Ivey down?

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31#
发表于 2005-3-20 02:20:00 | 只看该作者
"This year, so far, 5 of Ivey MBA2006 Chinese got summer offers in Canada and US, including finance, marketing(2), consulting, project management. They are all big companies. Some of Chinese are still on the way (second round interview), I mean summer jobs hunting in NA. Some will go back China for intern because they decide to go back upon graduation. I expect that 8-10 of us will get offers of CA or US, say 20%." -----------??


以下是引用braveMBA在2005-3-20 2:15:00的发言:
Bah-toronto,

I mean, so far, 8-10 summer internship for MBA 2006 this year in Canadaor US.  I don't know what is the numbers of other schools crossNA, do you have any clues of that?

Thanks.

Brave


32#
发表于 2005-3-21 02:10:00 | 只看该作者

Bah-toronto,


Maybe I am totally wrong to put all those three universities together, but my start point is making an example here. I do not understand why you have concern with York. It is out of the scope of this disscussion and shall we just go back to the topic here. In fact, I have respect to Ivey even York because they have made their efforts to find some ways in order to help the job-hunting of their Chinese graduates. Both of them have CM office in China. That is something positive and beneficial to Chinese applicants. Maybe they are still not quite supportive for the time being. But based on the current immigrant issue in Canada, it is really a better attitude and should be respected.


I understand that the entry bar for Ivey and Rotman is higher than York. If you concern is this, it does not matter because I just want to discuss one unique group- the Chinese MBA students in Canada.


Since I am a landed immigrant here, I always think about one topic recently. What is the point of immigrant prison. Does it really a concern for us to choose the MBA programs? If you can not find a decent job here or you can not make a  living here. What is the objective for a Canadian Citizenship? If your concern is your family or your offspring, I think nobody can say that his or her offspring or family will be happy if you are trapped or cornered in a limited prison. I have heard serious debate related to the education systems in Canada and China. The fact is that you can not control other person's destiny even your childrens'. So why should we take the immigrant prison so seriously? If you can find a job here after you graduation, it is natural to get a citizenship here. Otherwise, I cannot see anything critical or important for the immigrant prison.  WELCOME discussion on this topic


[此贴子已经被作者于2005-3-21 2:11:35编辑过]
33#
 楼主| 发表于 2005-3-21 23:09:00 | 只看该作者

Thanks for every body who spends time to help me. As an immigrant myself, I had experience going to college in Canada and work in Canada. So would like to share some personal thoughts. Please notice my writing is only about Canada, I donot have USA experience, so please point out my wrongs about the states.


First, Canada doesnot care your Chinese experience.Only experience in Canada, or experience from big companies. That is what I learned from my IT experience, and guess that would still be true in MBA. If that is the case, then going to MBA in Canada would be a dangerous journey ---- and that is why I am considering going to USA.


Second, Canada is low cost in tuition, yes, that is true. But the salary is much lower and the tax is much higher comparing to USA. If you pay CAD60000 for Ivey and get CAD70000 when you graduate, then your starting point is from there. If you go Tuck, pay US$70000 and get US$90000 when you graduate, then your starting point is much higher. Everybody will do the math when they apply, so low cost is not the reason. In addition, Immigration is not too, because your years in USA is the same as years in Canada, that is what Immigration Canada says. Years in USA is counted in your immigration prison too.


Third, In Canada, an immigrant from China tries to find a good job by himself, that is rare. Because your experience and education in China are not recognized by most of Canadian companies. The only exception is that you work in IT for a big company in China, say IBM China. Canadian people are more conservative than Americans.


So I guess that MBA programs in Canada would be somewhat the same as other college programs --- most of the students will rely on the schools to find jobs. Perhaps some local people can land jobs by their own, but for a Chinese immigrant, the answer is close to never.


Guess every body goes to MBA, hoping to change careers or go higher level. Many of them do not have related experience, or even they had experience, that experience was not good enough. Say you want to work in financial after MBA, would your experience as a casher very helpful when you hunt for financial manager jobs when you graduate? So my guess is employers understand that situation, because if you had good enough experience, definitely you will not go to MBA--- in that case, MBA is a waste of time and money. So you have to get good marks in your MBA study, and then good interview skills.


Now here is where English kicks in. During interviews, your language skills are vital. If your English is not good enough, then you would feel more nervous, and sometimes maybe humiliated too. As a result, your confidence goes down, and your performance goes to trash.


Another thing, many Chinese people are from technical side, so they are not good at communicating and marketing themselves. And that is hard to change overnight. For example, your suites, your hair, your shave, your talking style... all these are so important, especially at high profile business interviews. Language is just one espect, but not all.


So my conclusion is that experience, cost or anything else shall not affect your MBA selection process. Instead, you should mainly focus on the school's ability to attract top employers by the school's network and reputation. And that is why ranking is so important.


I can undersand Ivey guys try to defend themselves, but seems they are over confident -- typical when you are young, and think that you can save the world by yourself. Well that is good thing, and probably will lead to huge success. But for me, a middle aged guy, I have grown out of that stage. Selecting a good MBA, studying hard, then land myself a good job with good pay. ----That is all I want, and in order to achieve that, I need a high ranking B-school with excellent networking with high profile employers, and that is why I am thinking of going to USA.


34#
发表于 2005-3-21 23:28:00 | 只看该作者

" Second, Canada is low cost in tuition, yes, that is true. But the salary is much lower and the tax is much higher comparing to USA. If you pay CAD60000 for Ivey and get CAD70000 when you graduate, then your starting point is from there. If you go Tuck, pay US$70000 and get US$90000 when you graduate, then your starting point is much higher. Everybody will do the math when they apply, so low cost is not the reason. In addition, Immigration is not too, because your years in USA is the same as years in Canada, that is what Immigration Canada says. Years in USA is counted in your immigration prison too. "


It is not true anymore.

35#
发表于 2005-3-22 00:18:00 | 只看该作者
Sean1255,

I think your thinking is very logical and makes sense. If you decide toplay MBA like that, just do it. Sticking to your goals is always themost important. That's what I am trying to say. But, I still doubt thata so-called TOP school will give you direct link between your careerand employer. Exposure to more big companies because of schools'reputation is good no question. But if you can not be social, if yourresume is not that good, and if your cover letter story is not thatlogical, if your background is not attractive to employer (it'ssometimes a kind of luck, you know), employer will not hire you becauseof school's reputation. You even can not get an interview. BTW, abetter mark also can not defintely bring you more opportunties to getinterviews because most of industry companies never need that. Only IBand MC require transcript in most of situations. But do you know howmany Chinese guys in "TOP" schools get interviews from IB and MC? Veryvery very few.

I don't want to defend Ivey something, just the topic is targeting atIvey Chinese students, haha, but I like to discuss with you guys.

Good luck to you.

Brave.
36#
 楼主| 发表于 2005-3-22 06:29:00 | 只看该作者

thanks for your advice

here is my email: sean1255(A) hotmail.com. Welcome to share some thoughts. Just because I am now having an 'ok' job in a big company, and having family with 2 kids. So going to Ivey is easier to manage, while going to states causes more headache. However, if going to Ivey does not lead to a decent job, then why waste 2 years and over $100000? On the other hand, if chances are much better, then going to states surely is a better choice --- although it means short term trouble, but long term speaking, I can gain more out of it. That is why I am asking help here, totally donot mean to offend anybody, especially guys at Ivey. Honestly, if you can be admitted by Ivey, then you have already approved you are a top guy --- no questions about that. And if you are young, then going to which school does not mean that lot, as long as you go to a good one. But I am 36, so going to MBA might be my last chance for change, therefore, I have to balance many things, such as costs, family, and for sure, a higher starting job when I graduate. I will apply for Tuck and Ivey, because at this time, not many choices --- already passed deadlines for many schools, besides, my GMAT is 720 with AWA 4, well quite good but still not good enough to get me in Harvard, you know? Tuck has 30% admission rate so I still have hope. Ivey is not a big problem, especially I had college education (average A+) and working experience in a big Canadian IT company --- this will make me stand out among Chinese applicants when I apply for Ivey. Like to know what you think.

37#
发表于 2005-3-22 07:25:00 | 只看该作者

回复:Sean1255

Hi,Sean1255:

I PMed you, keep in touch!



以下是引用sean1255在2005-3-22 6:29:00的发言:

here is my email: sean1255(A) hotmail.com. Welcome to share some thoughts. Just because I am now having an 'ok' job in a big company, and having family with 2 kids. So going to Ivey is easier to manage, while going to states causes more headache. However, if going to Ivey does not lead to a decent job, then why waste 2 years and over $100000? On the other hand, if chances are much better, then going to states surely is a better choice --- although it means short term trouble, but long term speaking, I can gain more out of it. That is why I am asking help here, totally donot mean to offend anybody, especially guys at Ivey. Honestly, if you can be admitted by Ivey, then you have already approved you are a top guy --- no questions about that. And if you are young, then going to which school does not mean that lot, as long as you go to a good one. But I am 36, so going to MBA might be my last chance for change, therefore, I have to balance many things, such as costs, family, and for sure, a higher starting job when I graduate. I will apply for Tuck and Ivey, because at this time, not many choices --- already passed deadlines for many schools, besides, my GMAT is 720 with AWA 4, well quite good but still not good enough to get me in Harvard, you know? Tuck has 30% admission rate so I still have hope. Ivey is not a big problem, especially I had college education (average A+) and working experience in a big Canadian IT company --- this will make me stand out among Chinese applicants when I apply for Ivey. Like to know what you think.



38#
发表于 2005-3-24 09:13:00 | 只看该作者

I got the job replacement data of past several years from Ivey Job Placement Office.

I should say it is not bad: about 75% of overall within 3 months after graduation (immigrants and international students about 65%). I am not sure whether it includes the data of Chinese immigrants or international students from Mainland who got their jobs in China after graduation. Moreover, how much is the average salary of Chinese graudates in case they work in China. I asked the above questions to the officer of Ivey. But I did not get the response.

Natalie: The data for placement is collected up to and including 3
months post-graduation. The placement rates you requested are:
MBA Class of 2003:  75%
International Grads Class of 2003: 57%
MBA Class of 2004:  76%
International Grads Class of 2004: 66%

Hope you can find more detail information from the Ivey's Shanghai job placement office.

39#
发表于 2005-5-18 11:53:00 | 只看该作者
以下是引用vagabond在2005-3-19 10:06:00的发言:

I didn't want to go too negative to BraveMBA in the first place. So, I just gave him a subtle reminder. I think my reminder will do no harm to his future career as well as his Ivey MBA study, perhaps helping push him to sharpen his competitiveness in the NA job market.



Since the thread subject is "Chinese people drag Ivey down", too many grammatical errors made by an Ivey student, in fact, greatly substantiate applicants' concern raised by the author of this thread. From this angle, I’m hinting that BraveMBA’s argument has actually consolidated the author’s concern. That’s the exact point expressed in my prior posting.



I didn't count how many errors BraveMBA has made in one of his postings, maybe scores of or so. And most importantly, his argument lacks articulation and eloquence. If I had been an ETS teacher, I might have rated his argument a 2 or something. If BraveMBA had been a GMAT candidate, I wouldn't have said to him like that. But between his lines he seems very confident that he has not any problem communicating with others using English, especially in the NA job market, but I deeply doubt it. At least it was very uncomfortable for me to read his postings.



In general, talented students with great English postings here, especially under this thread, can attract more talented applicants to follow suit and apply to Ivey. Yet, my gut feeling tells me the opposite, at least from BraveMBA's posting in this thread.   



>>To be honest,I don't understand what  your post try to illustrate.I have read many BraveMBA's post,he always tries to provide useful information or opinions to the community.If you have any different standpoint,I believe the disscussion will be welcome. Doing some constructive criticism is better than just wirting some stupid words. <<



Oh, by the way, in this short post, you have made several errors. So, apply your own words to your own case: "By the way,improving your writing skill first is strongly advised!"



My 2 cents: Open-mindedness is the first step to success.




Hi, vagabond:


     Your English is the ugliest. I've never read such a ugly English message. Your English contaminates the purity of our lovely "ChaseDream". OUR ENGLISH IS A LOT BETTER THAN YOURS BECAUSE WE RESPECT PEOPLE!  Shame on you!


  

40#
发表于 2005-5-18 11:56:00 | 只看该作者

Hi, vagabond:

     Your English is the ugliest. I've never read such a ugly English message. Your English contaminates the purity of our lovely "ChaseDream". OUR ENGLISH IS A LOT BETTER THAN YOURS BECAUSE WE RESPECT PEOPLE!  

Shame on you!

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