PREP 08 TEST1-191 关于such的问题

winy

这里不是同位语，是独立主格，修饰前面的句子，是前面句子的补充说明。
你可以想象成作者的一种murmur,呵呵。。。
如果加了such，就不能是murmur了，肯定是很清醒大声地说的，并且要有谓语的，那就变成两句话了。不过这里不能用such，因为不能指向前面任一个东西。

zhongshanlh

目前个人对于这个问题还是保留意见，看看其他童鞋怎么说这个问题吧。我们先各自保留意见。。。。。

这里不是同位语，是独立主格，修饰前面的句子，是前面句子的补充说明。
你可以想象成作者的一种murmur,呵呵。。。
如果加了such，就不能是murmur了，肯定是很清醒大声地说的，并且要有谓语的，那就变成两句话了。不过这里不能用such，因为不能指向前面任一个东西。

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/11 23:36:13)

babybearmm

最近在看CFA, market的定义是可以指target group (a group of people)啊，我不知道和中文定义的”市场”是否有冲突，反正market就这样。

from wiki:
A target market is a group of customers that the business has decided to aim its marketing efforts and ultimately its merchandise towards.^[1] A well-defined target market is the first element to a marketing strategy. The target market and the marketing mix variables of product, place(distribution), promotion and price are the four elements of a marketing mix strategy that determine the success of a product in the marketplace.

就是在marketing领域说的market，很多时候是指target market，就是a group of customers.

当然你说的定义，也是market定义中包含的一种最常用的，在economics/finance领域常用，或者更确切说来叫做marketplace.

--
这道题目的正确选项，最后的"a group of borrowers that collectively known as xxx market"，这本身就给出了解释。

your conclusion is unfounded, because you have made the mistake of changing the concept of the "market" I mentioned.
你说的销售的可能性和机会，而我说的市场是由供求双方组成的有某种固定联系的场所或组织的合称。这道题很明显是指后一种解释啊。虽然字面上都叫市场，但是含义却不同。

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/11 22:20:28)

winy

下面是次贷市场的定义，这是我要表达的意思。
Definition of 'Subprime Market'The market for lenders and borrowers of subprime credit, a credit that is lent to people of questionable or limited credit histories. Includes the business of subprime mortgages, subprime auto loans and subprime credit cards, as well as various securitization products that use subprime debt as collateral.

最近在看CFA, market的定义是可以指target group (a group of people)啊，我不知道和中文定义的”市场”是否有冲突，反正market就这样。

from wiki:
A target market is a group of customers that the business has decided to aim its marketing efforts and ultimately its merchandise towards.^[1] A well-defined target market is the first element to a marketing strategy. The target market and the marketing mix variables of product, place(distribution), promotion and price are the four elements of a marketing mix strategy that determine the success of a product in the marketplace.

就是在marketing领域说的market，很多时候是指target market，就是a group of customers.

当然你说的定义，也是market定义中包含的一种最常用的，在economics/finance领域常用，或者更确切说来叫做marketplace.

--
这道题目的正确选项，最后的"a group of borrowers that collectively known as xxx market"，这本身就给出了解释。

your conclusion is unfounded, because you have made the mistake of changing the concept of the "market" I mentioned.
你说的销售的可能性和机会，而我说的市场是由供求双方组成的有某种固定联系的场所或组织的合称。这道题很明显是指后一种解释啊。虽然字面上都叫市场，但是含义却不同。

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/11 22:20:28)

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/5/12 4:40:25)

teddybearj4

……这里这么复杂嘛~~~还要理解market的定义？我觉得GMAC应该不会考指代的是market还是borrower的ambiguous吧？

babybearmm

你给的也没错，问题是这个定义是用于广义的，例如finance这个行业研究，某个研究报告中提到的"subprime market"就是如你定义的。

但这道题的语境，是针对某个特定的银行，也就是说针对某个特定的lender，从它的眼光看，就是a group of borrowers is collectively known as "subprime market".
因为从它的眼光看，它关心的这个market，只关心所有的borrowers，也就是a group of "customers".

类比：
如果进行市场研究，经济学家、市场研究员etc.说的“市场”，是包含producers & customers. 比如行业研究报告里说“高档化妆品市场”，自然就包括所有买家和卖家，这样一个marketplace。
但对于这其中一个producer来说，是一个player. 在它家的marketing strategy的报告（比如proposal）中，就说：“我们定位的目标市场(target market)是高收入人群。”换句话说就是：高收入人群(our potential customers) is collectively known as our target market.

btw:你可曾听到说：“我们产品定位的目标市场，是白领人士、我们企业以及我们的竞争企业所共同组成的场所”？
反正我从没听这么说的，听着都怪怪的....都是直接说：“我们产品定位的目标市场，是白领人士”

回到这道题，整个句子的scope确定，就是the loan company. 所以the borrowers组成的group is collectively known as xx market.

下面是次贷市场的定义，这是我要表达的意思。
Definition of 'Subprime Market'The market for lenders and borrowers of subprime credit, a credit that is lent to people of questionable or limited credit histories. Includes the business of subprime mortgages, subprime auto loans and subprime credit cards, as well as various securitization products that use subprime debt as collateral.

最近在看CFA, market的定义是可以指target group (a group of people)啊，我不知道和中文定义的”市场”是否有冲突，反正market就这样。

from wiki:
A target market is a group of customers that the business has decided to aim its marketing efforts and ultimately its merchandise towards.^[1] A well-defined target market is the first element to a marketing strategy. The target market and the marketing mix variables of product, place(distribution), promotion and price are the four elements of a marketing mix strategy that determine the success of a product in the marketplace.

就是在marketing领域说的market，很多时候是指target market，就是a group of customers.

当然你说的定义，也是market定义中包含的一种最常用的，在economics/finance领域常用，或者更确切说来叫做marketplace.

--
这道题目的正确选项，最后的"a group of borrowers that collectively known as xxx market"，这本身就给出了解释。

your conclusion is unfounded, because you have made the mistake of changing the concept of the "market" I mentioned.
你说的销售的可能性和机会，而我说的市场是由供求双方组成的有某种固定联系的场所或组织的合称。这道题很明显是指后一种解释啊。虽然字面上都叫市场，但是含义却不同。

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/11 22:20:28)

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/5/12 4:40:25)

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/12 10:23:56)

babybearmm

这个问题还可以这么看，正确句子如下：

The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time, a group collectively known as the subprime lending market.

（以下是反证法思路）
假如按照winy同学的理解，
subprime lending market = {all the fore-mentioned borrowers, the loan company, other lenders}
上面的{}符号就是数学里的集合符号
那么这个句子说"a group collectively known as the subprime lending market"
也就是说
"a group" = all the fore-mentioned borrowers, the loan company, other lenders
那么我请问，前面句子哪里有提到other lenders? ——你可别告诉我这个market里就只有这一家lender哦

那么就说，按照winy同学的理解，前文并没提到other lenders，结果"a group"这里凭空多出来other lenders. 那么这个句子的逻辑就不对了啊！而事实上这个句子是正确的，因此推出矛盾。

-----
winy同学说，后面", a group collectively known as ..."这部分是独立主格结构，不是同位语。
而我要说，如果按照winy的理解，即"a group"牵扯进前文没有提到的other lenders，那独立主格也不是这样的。

examples of absolute phrases

His head held high, Owen walked out of the store.

question #108, verbal review 2nd
http://www.beatthegmat.com/water-t72750.html
joe ran after the bus, his arms flailing wildly as he attempted tocapture the driver's attention.

these modifiers are fairly flexible, although the pronoun usually refers to the subject of the preceding clause (as it does in this example -- his = joe's). note that"its" in the correct answer also refers to the subject of the preceding clause.

-Ron

从意思上看，absolute phrase provides further information related to the idea in the main clause.
而absolute phrase里面的noun，通常也是主句subject的一个component或者characteristic.

而你如果将"a group ..."理解成absolute phrase结构的话，这个a group引入了out-of-scope components，也就是other lenders. 不符合逻辑。

不是你随便拈一个noun + 一个noun modifier就可以说他叫做absolute phrase的。那我说这句话：
I was late for school yesterday, my favorite music including Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu.
好，从语法上看，我这个句子没有任何错误吧？
但是逻辑上，就完全是牛头不对马嘴，non-sense!

那么，如果按你的理解，"a group"包含了out-of-scope的东西，也就是other lenders，那么这样的句子也是牛头不对马嘴。

----

按我们的理解，
"a group" = the fore-mentioned borrowers
subprime lending market = {all the fore-mentioned borrowers}
于是作者说，
The loan company announced it would soon lend money to borrowers with proven records of not paying back their loans on time, a group collectively known as the subprime lending market.

winy

这里的a group里的lender和borrower只是取概念上的抽象的lender和borrower，而不是你说的具体的非得要在数量上对等的lender和borrower。这句话只是从The loan company（很明显这是作者上文特指的一家贷款公司）借钱给它的borrowers这一个具体的例子里抽象出“次贷市场”这个新的金融概念。

babybearmm

"而不是你说的具体的非得要在数量上对等的lender和borrower。" 我可没说数量对等，我是说，按你的观点，你认为句子中的market指包括other lenders在内的整个市场，那么这个句子就是non-sense.

“这句话只是从The loan company（很明显这是作者上文特指的一家贷款公司）借钱给它的borrowers这一个具体的例子里抽象出“次贷市场”这个新的金融概念。”
如果这是你对这句话的理解，那我言尽于此了，这是我最后一篇。
你说“这句话....只是从一个具体的例子里抽象出这个新的金融概念”，敢问这就是你对这句话的理解？

我从未否认过你给出的金融概念的定义是对的，这是从economics/finance角度给出的严格定义。
我们的争议在于——这个句子是什么意思？这句话的scope是啥？作者写这句话是为了说啥？
一切扣住句意逻辑！这才是GMAT SC的本质所在！

你认为这句话是“只是从一个具体的例子里抽象出这个新的金融概念”，那你认为这句话是类似于一个金融行业分析师的市场研究报告？或者是通过这个例子向大众普及这个全新的金融概念？....

都不是。这句话讨论的scope是这家特定的loan company. 我们关心的是这家公司的marketing strategy，它所针对的市场，也就是那些borrowers. （类比于我先前给的例子：“本产品的目标市场是高收入人群”）

这里的a group里的lender和borrower只是取概念上的抽象的lender和borrower，而不是你说的具体的非得要在数量上对等的lender和borrower。这句话只是从The loan company（很明显这是作者上文特指的一家贷款公司）借钱给它的borrowers这一个具体的例子里抽象出“次贷市场”这个新的金融概念。

-- by 会员 winy (2012/5/12 15:47:22)

teddybearj4

我比较赞同baby姐的解释。

其实我还是不是太理解winy的意思……金融市场白学了……囧