关于Ving用法—og12 sc 中21和og25比较，有点迷惑了

铁板神猴

about "whether" and "if": (excerpt from Longman 5th)

If and whether are both used to introduce clauses mentioning things that someone asks about or is uncertain about.

for instance:
I'm not sure if I heard him correctly.
I don't know whether he is guilty.

Whether can also be used after a prepostion, before the phrase "or not", and before a "to" infinitive, but if cannot.

for instance:
The question of whether (NOT if) the injuries had caused Mary's death remains unknown.
Nobody knew whether or not the technique worked.
He won't decide whether to become a candidate until next year.

--- ALL differences are above.

enkyklios

铁板神猴 发表于 2013-6-22 20:50
about "whether" and "if": (excerpt from Longman 5th)

If and whether are both used to introduce clau ...

在语法版里见到神猴版主啦，

再次感谢猴哥当初的指点，

铁板神猴

所谓的“夹心修饰”其实就是一种中国人创造的，比较“好听”的说法。本质就是comma + -VING 放在句子中间的情况。

所以没有特别特殊的地方~

铁板神猴

关于 Comma + -ING，要注意到可能有两种情况 1) noun modifier, 2) adverbial modifier.

我们做SC的时候总是会涉及很多各式各样的结构和变化，不太建议总结太过复杂的，针对每一个不同结构和位置的语法总结，这么多的rules你放到考场上很难一起想到来并运用上去。
很简单，结合 gramma + meaning （句子结构+句意）两者来解题。

所以Comma + -ING是否noun modifier，or adverbial modifier，根据语义来判断就好了。---RULE 1#

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以下是我看了大家讨论后，给自己“拼凑”的一份总结，觉得基本讲清楚了所有的 comma + -ING。

（Stacey那段开头，解释了如何理解Comma + -ING有时既可以理解为 noun modifier，又能理解为 adverbial modifier） --- zhuang引用的 “aeoluseros 斑斑”的例子就属于这个类型，不用刻意去区别到底是noun modifier or adverbial modifier, they are the same in essence/meaning.

由于noun modifier比较基本，所以instructor的总结都比较侧重adverbial modifier的理解。但是具体是哪种，看句子的时候先参照 RULE 1#。


Stacey:
As a very general rule, think of a "comma -ing" as modifying the clause that it's touching (but the "comma -ing" could come at the beginning, middle, or end). When it comes at the beginning, we often think of it as a noun modifier, but it's still the same thing.
Slipping on the ice, I fell and broke my ankle. (Ouch!)
--> I'm not just trying to say that *I* slipped on the ice. I'm trying to say that, as a result of slipping on the ice, *I fell.*
I slipped on the ice, breaking my ankle.
--> again, it's not just that I broke my ankle - it's that I broke it because I slipped.
Note that I wouldn't say:
I fell and broke my ankle, slipping on the ice.
Why not?
--> In general, there's a sequence to these constructions. The thing that's written first happens first, and the second thing happens after, as a result of, as a consequence of the first thing.


Ron:
"leading to" is a classic example of a COMMA + -ING modifier.
these modifiers refer to the subject and action of the preceding clause, and imply a very specific relationship between the modifier and the action in that clause: the -ING action must be either
(1)simultaneous with AND subordinate to, or
(2)a direct and inevitable consequence of,
the action in the main clause.

for instance:
my brother took extra courses every semester throughout his college career, graduating in only three years.
-->correct.

my brother ate frozen food every day throughout his college career, graduating in only three years.
-->incorrect. There are no grammatical issues with this sentence, but it's absurd in terms of meaning: there is no causal or consequential relationship between eating frozen food and graduating early.

that's a quick rundown on how to use COMMA + -ING.


Exception: Comma + -ING in complex expression (2+ svo) – meaning issue
also, bear in mind that there is some flexibility here -- if a comma + -ING modifier follows a complex expression that has more than one subject+verb pair, then you may have to use a certain amount of commonsense to distinguish what is modified.
the modifier still must modify the same rules, but could refer to either of the subject/verb combinations.

e.g1.
i carried a bag containing six incubators that enclosed baby chicks, supporting them with nutrients andheat.
here, the comma -ing modifier modifies only the second subject+verb pair.  shown in color:
i carried a bag containing six incubators that enclosed baby chicks, supporting them with nutrients and heat.

VS.
e.g2
i dropped a bag containingsix incubators that enclosed baby chicks, breaking two of them and endangering the chicks' lives.
here, the comma -ing modifier modifies the entire preceding clause.  shown in color:
i dropped a bag (containingsix incubators that enclosed baby chicks), breaking two of them and endangering the chicks' lives.


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如果看到这里还嫌不够晕ORZ。。。 再推荐这个拓展一下 ==+

关于V-ing SVO和SVO V-ing位置能否互换：（not a rule）
http://forum.chasedream.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=751727&page=3#pid16810231

铁板神猴

enkyklios 发表于 2013-6-22 20:55
在语法版里见到神猴版主啦，

再次感谢猴哥当初的指点，

: ) enkyklios太客气了，我看到你的总结了 很赞呀~~

为你和zhuang同学的探索精神鼓掌~！

ps. 大家顺便看看，OG是否还有超出Ron总结的部分情况存在~ Ron以前的确没提到noun modifier的情况，不过我猜想native speaker可能只是没太把noun modifier的情况放在心上吧。maybe~

enkyklios

铁板神猴 发表于 2013-6-22 21:28
: ) enkyklios太客气了，我看到你的总结了 很赞呀~~

为你和zhuang同学的探索精神鼓掌~！

谢谢猴哥

其实zhuang兄弟到现在不肯看我的总结贴子隐藏部分(需要回复）
我总结的时候始终没有敢下结论说“having dong" 一定不能作定语，因为我们没有这方面的语法依据。

只是就zhuang兄弟举的这个例子来说，到不全是因为amassing的解释在错误选项里。而是因为我认为按定语来理解会出现逻辑上的问题，我在回复一个贴子时提到这一点了。

本帖最后由 enkyklios 于 2013-6-16 20:21 编辑


实在是不想看到楼主被误导；

Scientists, having amassed important information about SARS, are now drawing the conclusion that…
这个句子应该是这样，After scientists have amassed important information about SRAR, they are now ……。

一定不要把它当定语。kiwifoodtown兄是论坛里的大牛，他其实已经说的很清楚了，楼主没有重视。

我愿意不揣鄙陋把我理解的其中的道理与你分享，看看为什么它只能是状语而不能是定语。
状语你已经看到了，是说在科学家们积累了大量知识一后，他们现在……
定语呢？
在此非限定定语；科学家（科学家有大量的……知识）现在……，。，显然这是一个荒谬的说法，科学家有各式各样，他们研究的领域并不相同，所以作为定语本身是荒谬的。


一孔之见，不知楼主以为然否？

铁板神猴

enkyklios 发表于 2013-6-22 22:48
谢谢猴哥

其实zhuang兄弟到现在不肯看我的总结贴子隐藏部分(需要回复）

我觉得这句话里面noun modifier和adverbial modifier的差别不大

因为按照读句子的顺序理解下来，doing 按照touch rule的确就会倾向于修饰前面的clause or noun。OG的解释里能够看出它这方面的偏好。（这点的原理有些类似于Stacey和Ron所举得例子中，there's a sequence to these constructions的原因。）

感觉你和zhuang的point都有各自的道理。这里我觉得就采用meaning的方式去解题吧。（其实不管noun modifier or adverbial modifier，都是Subject在doing嘛~）结合grammar和meaning，就不需要这些条条框框了~

enkyklios

铁板神猴 发表于 2013-6-22 23:00
我觉得这句话里面noun modifier和adverbial modifier的差别不大

因为按照读句子的顺序理解下来，doing  ...

嗯，这个问题想最终确宝看起来还要更权威的语法书才行，但就像你说的句子意思理解了也就可以了

enkyklios

铁板神猴 发表于 2013-6-22 23:00
我觉得这句话里面noun modifier和adverbial modifier的差别不大

因为按照读句子的顺序理解下来，doing  ...

神猴哥；

我翻了几本语法书; 书上说”分词的完成时“一般只作状语

铁板神猴

enkyklios 发表于 2013-6-23 00:01
神猴哥；

我翻了几本语法书; 书上说”分词的完成时“一般只作状语

中国人写的语法书？ 不管是老美写的，还是中国人写的，这种简单的一刀切式的总结，抛下了语义不去考虑，都是有问题的。（时常可以有反例）

baby举得例子（没有comma的情况下，分词无法做状语）
The man having come to school early this morning came to school again just now.   --- apparently "having come" functions as an adjective

这样的例子英语中比比皆是。

21.        Neuroscientists, having amassed a wealth of knowledge over the past twenty years about the brain and its development from birth to adulthood, are now drawing solid conclusions about how the human brain grows and how babies acquire language.

至于这句，很难说是noun modifier还是adverbial modifier，因为Comma + -ING两种情况都有，剩下的需要用meaning去判定。（与having done无关，只要句意需要，noun modifier一样可以是having done）

在这句的情况下，根据meaning，不管noun modifier 还是 adverbial modifier都行的通。但是通常很多人（native speakers）倾向于认为这是一种noun modifier。不过他们本质上都是同一种东西。

发现了么~ 实际上，我将Stacey的总结用中文又说了一遍。她所概括虽然是Ving放句首作noun modifier，但实际和这里的情况是一致的。
When it comes at the beginning (or between Subject and Main Verb), we often think of it as a noun modifier, but it's still the same thing.

As a very general rule, think of a "comma -ing" as modifying the clause that it's touching (but the "comma -ing" could come at the beginning, middle, or end).


Comma + -ING 可做noun modifier（当然本质与adverbial modifier并没有区别）的情况，还比如：
OG12 SC 30 --- comma + protecting   (1)
OG12 SC 65 --- comma + absorbing
OG12 SC 61 --- Rivaling + comma + Subject  (2)
OG12 SC 67 --- Affording + comma + Subject
OG12 SC 21 --- Subject, having amassed, Main Verb  (3)
OG12 SC 95 --- Subject, acting like, Main Verb
...... (, etc.)

exception:
OG12 SC 29 --- with noun doing, doing, and doing 中间的那个Comma + -ING   (4)
（再次验证了一刀切式的Rules相当不可靠了吧，英语变数太多了）

Comma + -ED 只能作noun modifier的情况：
OG12 SC 28 --- comma + based on   (5)


不知不觉把OG中所有的Comma + -ING 都翻了一遍，这次应该没问题了…… 我基本同意Stacey的看法~

最终我们要记住的不是(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)一共5种结构的变化，而是那句黄色的 General Summary。结合Meaning，就能做所有的comma + -ing了。