A feeling to the Ivey

jkmbe

to sean1255:

what do you exactly expect from an ivey mba?

sean1255

well, to me, it is simple -- a decent job that pays off the investment.

You could argue that it is a personal thing, and no school could guarantee you a decent job. However, we might look at the other side of the puzzle. Does the school draw enough decent postings? If it does, then it is your personal responsibility to get one. However, if it does not, then where is the responsibility of the school? In Ivey' case, the decent job percentage is not that great. As a decent job, compare to Ivey's tuition and workload, probably $100k Canadian is reasonable?

Second arguement that I often hear is that Ivey's emphasis on soft skills (communication, leadership.....) actually brings more benefit in the long run. Totally agree.

The only problem is that when I graduate, I am not competing for a senior level job, instead, pretty much an entry level job. While soft skills are key factors for senior jobs, and are also important for any jobs, I think when you compete at entry level, hard skills might be as the same important, or even more important. Simple example, during the interview, an Ivey grad could talk and you said you could lead, but you could not do well with the financial models. On the other hand, a student from UT might do worse in talking, but much better in the models. As a recruiter from a financial institution, looking for an entry level employee whose job is doing financial models, which one would you pick? Of course, in the long run, the guy you pick today might become VP CEO, so you should also consider their soft skills. But which weights more? Another interesting question: If you could not get the entry job today, how could you even have a chance to get the VP or CEO job tomorrow?

So my view is simple. In the past, when there were not many B-schools as today, Ivey grad could easily land a senior job. In that situation, Ivey's soft skill focus paid off. That is why Ivey enjoyed the huge success in the past. However, things change. Now, thousands of B-schools, and MBA has gradually lose the previous prestigousness. The shift forces the MBA grad to compete at much lower level. Therefore, schools should adjust their education focus to meet the changed job market demand. Ivey failed to do so, and that is why Ivey suffered huge lost in recent years, and that is also why other schools, such as UT, who successfully adjusted their focus, enjoy huge success too.

ppbb

To Sean1255,

First of all, thank you for sharing all your valuable opinions and advice about Ivey. Knowing you are an MBA student of Ivey 2007, I am sure you must have lots of firsthand information regarding what you are experiencing at Ivey and what Ivey's going through. I definitely agree with some of you points, such as Ivey's current lower ranking, hard time for some graduates to find out suitable jobs, and smaller student pool. However, while facing more and more fierce competition, Ivey has also realized these issues and is trying to find out best ways to improve itself. First, we see that the 2-year program has been changed to a 12- month one. Nobody can guarantee this action would improve Ivey's future at all. However, at least Ivey's taken some initiatives rather than does nothing.

Secondly, I think you should stop complaining about Ivey since you have done enough no matter whether you want to quit Ivey or stay. Among all the things that you are analyzing, you have forgotten one thing- a good student body for Ivey. As we all know there are many elements that could affect a B-school's whole performance, such as students, faculty, and ranking. Personally, I think a good student body is very crucial for B-schools. Unfortunately, especially in recent years, Ivey shorts of good students. This point you must know clearly more than I do. Whoever has a good academic performance, a strong background, and an excellent personality (of course there must be other important aspects) would have advantages to find out descend jobs.

Finally, where are those good students? Ok, they might have gone to US or Europe for high ranking schools, they might have gone to Rotman and Schulich for better current ranking and relatively low tuitions, and of course they might have gone to anywhere else they wanted. However, Ivey needs good students so much! Good students will bring more descend jobs for themselves and high rankings for the school. It’s a win- win thing for both sides. Although your opinion has truly reflected some of facts at Ivey, your opinion might also misleads people to make their decisions and might scare away more and more qualified students who wanted to pick Ivey to pursue their MBA. Without qualified students and alumni, no matter whatever it does, a B-school can’t survive successfully!

In sum, although I really appreciate your opinions about Ivey, I would really like to hear more positive ideas on how to save Ivey.

Cheers,

Below quoted yours:

---In Ivey' case, the decent job percentage is not that great. As a decent job, compare to Ivey's tuition and workload, probably $100k Canadian is reasonable?---( Ivey’s students pay Canadian dollars for their tuition. Therefore compared with US dollar tuition, $100k Canadian pay might be reasonable for whoever earned less than this amount.)

---The only problem is that when I graduate, I am not competing for a senior level job, instead, pretty much an entry level job.--- (I have to say whether a student can get a senior level job or an entry level job, pretty much depending on whether he or she would continue previous career path or would switch to other career fields. There are quiet differences between them. For the second one, it is indeed more hard and takes more time to get.)

---On the other hand, a student from UT might do worse in talking, but much better in the models. As a recruiter from a financial institution, looking for an entry level employee whose job is doing financial models, which one would you pick? --- (Unless you have sound evidence for this one, especially for Chinese graduates at Rotman, this point is not very persuasive.)

---and that is also why other schools, such as UT, who successfully adjusted their focus, enjoy huge success too.--- (The same thing. This is too vague to believe.)

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-5 0:14:48编辑过]

sean1255

To PPBB

Thanks for your reply. But I really do not agree with you in some points.

First, you mentioned students are key factor for b schools. Definitely. But if you go deeper and dig out the reason behind the surface, what drives good applicants? you might say, a good school, then what makes a school a good one? The point is all these things are interrelated, and the key factor is the ability of a school to provide needed products to the market. The market is employers, while the products are graduates. failing to do so, cause the school losing the battle in rankings, resources, degrade the education process, and then less attractive to top applicants. while doing so, increasing the  demand of products, claiming a premium price (salary), drawing more resources and applicants. if you think b school as any other business, and have to fulfill the market needs, especially the segmented markets, such as finance, consulting, marketing, then you see the logic.

while your market changes and you donot change, you die. that is the case of ivey. and that is the case of ut or other schools catching up, because they see the changes, refine their operations and process, and provide suited products to the market.

Second, yes ivey changed, from 2 years to 1 year. well is it really true that 'change is always better than doing nothing'? To me, changes without thoroughly understanding your market and analyzing your position are not good at all. strictly speaking, these are not changes, instead gamblings. while changes are desperatedly needed, gamblings are not, for sure. could you see any logic behind changing from 2 years to 1 year? is that our market (employers) wanted? and why they want that change? If no answers could be found for these questions, then, that so called change does not do anything positive to the school.

as to your point of career enhancers and career switchers, you are right. but the reality is that most of the students in ivey are switchers. and the reality is that the jobs we are competing at are not senior level managers or vp, rather, junior level associate, analyst and manager trainees. no matter what your background looks like, and for a chinese student, your dream of coming to ivey and landing a senior job is not realistic at all. More probably you will not find a job at all. You might think I am way to pessimistic, and you are the ones with background, personality, and academic excellence, well believe me, you are wrong. Yes you are highly competent, but in ivey in canada, you are not. not because others are strong, just because the system designed that it will not show that you are strong at all, then the reality here is that your previous experience and everything in china will not be counted.

jkmbe

中国学生的处境不是一个学校能够改变的,语言以及缺乏本地经验一直是中国学生/移民是找工作的硬伤. 摆正心态,重新开始才是比较现实的措施. 多伦多在餐馆里洗碗送餐的博士,硕士可能是全世界最多的,这根本是加拿大移民政策造成的一个社会问题. 个人认为如果有份50-60K的OFFER实在已经不应该在这里大呼小叫,虽然是少了些,但至少让你跨过这个门堪,一旦有了第一份工作,后面的就不难了.

ppbb

Jesus, this got to be stop somewhere! However, I can’t help arguing with you!

Instead of saying Ivey’s like a gambler, we should say it’s more like a casino. The students are the gamblers. As a gambler, you could go to Las Vegas or come to Niagara Fall. No matter where you go, the goal is to make money! No matter how luxurious, facilitated and prestigious casino a gambler is in, only the gambler himself and his luck can help him win!

A good school = the key factor is the ability of a school to provide needed products to the market  

                           + what applicants can afford to study at a B-school, such as tuition, location.

                           + what applicants can gain from a B-school besides learning knowledge, such as network, alumni

I am not interested in whatever high figures saying how many Ivey 2005 graduates secured jobs after 3 months of the graduation. However, it is important to know how many Chinese graduates, especially career switchers, with the help from alumni, have successfully landed jobs in Canada. What can I say? Ivey indeed has the longest the history and most alumni in Canada. I wish it didn’t change its name to Ivey because some people still keep laceName>WesternlaceName> laceName>BusinesslaceName> laceType>SchoollaceType> in mind in North American.  

Of course, a graduate cannot find a job only with the help from alumni. But nobody can help you, if you are not qualified yourself.

Holy rankings= the demand of employers and students + whatsoever may use to get

York has also been doing very well in ranking lately. However, why don’t many people pick on it? I don’t because I don’t even trust the number of its ranking.

One year program

I didn’t know how the consulting company persuaded Ivey to change to one year program. I would like it relocate to Toronto. Too bad that didn’t happen. However, I knew the decision was not made just over night. Nobody has seen the result of the change. Too bad you and I cannot give any firsthand info. either. But we have seen Ivey has had more opportunities to choose the students due to the small class.

What kind of students does Ivey allure?

The Canadian domestic market is good enough to Ivey. If it can get back more students who originally wanted to go to US. or Europe, it gets what it wants. Of course Asian, especially, China market, the whole world economic future, any B-school doesn’t want to target?

Job opportunities for Chinese graduates

Why could only less than half of 2005 Chinese graduates find summer interns? Why could almost half of 2006 Chinese graduates find summer interns either in Canada or China, while there are more Chinese students in 2006 term? How about, 2007, 2008…? The number will go up or go down? I don’t know. I only knew there are lots of reasons for the different results, such as students’ backgrounds, students’ performance, economy situation, and market needs…

I got to stop here, otherwise I can go on and go on.

Cheers,

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-10 5:05:54编辑过]

sean1255

"If you can be admitted by Top 10, don't come here;"   

           --- totally agree

"If you can't handle the presure when arguing with your classmates and profs, don't come here;"

        ---so you went there, and you can do what you said? beside, you call that repeating case facts plus    some bs arguement?

"If you are not confident to express yourself relative clearly to support your points, don't come here."

      ---sounds like you can do the talk, and have the confidence. how much are your class contribution marks?

"However,  if you want to challenge yourself to see how far you can push yourself and what's your limits"

     --- Have you found all these goodies?

sean1255

to PPBB,

yes you are totally right, and ivey is the only choice.

you have the ability, the personality, the softskills, the leadership, the communication, the confidence.........you will do superb in ivey, and you can prepare yourself so well that you donot even need the career management office. beside you will have tons of ceo jobs waiting for you, actually begging you to join.....................

so welcome to ivey then?

ThomasIvey

I have noticed that someone was really pissed off by his Ivey experience and overreacted by expressing some cynical views about Ivey. But before we attribute our academical and career hardship to case study method and Ivey teaching system, has anybody yet asked himself just one question:" what's your expectation out of 2 years of Ivey life?"

Unfortunately, no one had the luxury of stepping back and reflecting on his or her own Ivey experience, a critical ability for future managers to be able to think logically and act rationally. "Do you want great marks to pave your ways to ibanking or consulting positions in the "big names"?" If so, participate in the class, prepare well-designed frameworks for the final exams, spend tons of hours on reading cases, crunching numbers, typing case facts into your laptops and don't forget to constantly seek prof's advice on your current performance...If that's what you want out of Ivey experience. I want more than a shining score out of this school, if I can't get it now, probably I will learn the lessons now in class and try not to repeat in future work place, where the cost of such mistake is fatal. Besides, the reason why most Chinese students get a so-so grade after the first two terms is because they are not well-trained or motivated to participate actively either in classes or in workplaces before. So there is inevitably a huge learning curve in front of us, a challenge that not everyone has the gut to accept. Note that the essence of Ivey case method is to drive you out of your comfortable zone and prepare you well for future senior executive responsibilities.

So I came to Ivey half a year ago with a dream of becoming future leaders. I have prepared to be challenged both in class and after class. I know that there are many ways to success: getting excellent grades is only one means to end. How about my social life? I have tried my best to keep my Ivey life versatile: participating MBA games,So attending guest-speaker lectures, joining MBA/HBA social mixers and executing duties for student ambassadors etc. Am I learning a lot out of those activities? definitely yes. Remember Ivey is still the best busines school in Canada and it is my personal belief that I get the best business training here at Ivey that will give me a lifetime reward.

lili2004

Hi,

在您们讨论正经事的时候, 我小声问两个问题:

1.如果IVEY 是12个月的MBA program, 这个master  学历, 签 TN 的时候会被承认 master 学历吗? 我听说一年的master学历, 有些国家是不承认的. 不知道 TN 承认 IVEY 一年的 master 学历吗?

2. IVEY 的12个月MBA program, 是不是后面三个月都在写论文呢? 还是 12个月都在上课?

谢谢!

Lili2004