Chinese people drag Ivey down?

jasiminelover

Do not waste the time.

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-3-19 14:13:18编辑过]

bah-toronto

Hi, Sean1255:

Read your posting, partly agree with you, though the topic is controversial and even irritating somehow.

I gotta say you'r a mature and reflective guy. That's part of my concerns to Ivey either.

I know well more than 20 Ivey Chinese, from MBA 2001-MBA2006. I also know there were some incidents happened in ivey in 2001/2002--allegedly the whole career management team left, which caused a totally fresh, inexperienced, underexpectation team(including that Chinese girl, MBA 2002? and ex-instructor of New Oriental Toronto branch, who is working in Shanghai Ivey career office). As a result, those who graduate in the following years suffered a lot. However, this couldn't explain the Chinese graduates' plight, to my observation.

I have to say that the Chinese MBA pool in Canada isn't as strong as those in US or Europe top schools; seems nobody could challenge this. I don't want to discuss the reasons here, koz this would arise some sensitive issues and, perhaps, plenty of abuses. You know, some of Chinese MBAs and MBA-would-be are not mature or sophisticated enough, of course, they will learn this more quickly than others.

I believe one of the key reasons for the Chinese MBA's plight is their English communication skills. Say, how many peers feeling at ease during interviewing? How many could articulate their well-prepared "stories" while intercting with the interviwer well? How many could performe professionally during the two-years' study and those job-huntings? Not really. Especially when we have such big Chinese communities in Ivey, Rotman and Sculich. To place less than 10 Chinese is much easier a job for those top schools than marketing 40+(?), consisted of 30%(?) of the whole pool, Chinese for Ivey in Canada, a much smaller and more sluggish market. Honestly say, I don't think most of the graduate will return China even if they are able to land jobs in Canada, say, with annuals around 50-60K. To say the least, not me, with much stronger background in Mainland than most other peers.

I beg your pardon, gotta go sleep, exhauted these days. Discuss later. This is a great issue.

In a nutshell, Sean1255: you inspired a very good question and I believe facing the problem and endeavour to crack it is accord with CD spirit.

Keep in touch! If you are in Toronto, you could PM me your number and e-mail, we could discuss it openly.

Have a great weekend!

以下是引用sean1255在2005-3-18 2:40:00的发言：

Ok, I posted several questions about Ivey. Some say it is a great school, the ranking going down is simply because the job market. Well, that cannot be true, because if so, then other schools should feel the pressure too. Other says because Ivey is a GM school, so it is more likely to be impacted by bad job market. Cannot agree again. Because other GM schools, like Tuck, did pretty well during recent tough years, so why only Ivey was kicked?

Another interesting view is that Ivey admitted too many Chinese people in recent years, with poor communication skills. Therefore, they could not find jobs when they graduated. Well, that is strange, because Ivey has very strong presence in Asia and China, why cannot these Chinese guys with poor English skills go back to China and find jobs?

Actually I'd like to go back home to Shanghai, and land a job there if I can go to Ivey and graduate. There are obviously much more opportunities back there than in Canada. So really confused, and donot know if should go to Ivey or not.

One other thing, Ivey doesnot have job replacement data on its web site, especially salary and replacement percentage. So guess they really donot have good news.

Thanks for your input and help.

braveMBA

bah-toronto and sean1255:

Thanks for your contribution. Make sense. Agree with you that English communication skill is the common issue Chinese oversea MBAs are facing wherever they are. That's why I don't feel it is fair to put Ivey Chinese as the target. I have to say I am very open to discuss but once I am one of the team, I have responsibility to tell facts at Ivey not bias.

At Ivey, some of Ivey Chinese MBA2006 also got offers from US, including Michigan, Darden, Kelley, Purdue, Carlson.... Many reasons as you know stumbled them from going the states, such as visa, immigrant prison..... I don't want to compare the whole MBAspool in Canada with those in US. It seems doesn't make sense, at least to me, just because so what? When you got in a BS, I mean when you are staying here, the comparison has no value to you. You are dealing with people at THIS SCHOOL mostly.

This year, so far, 5 of Ivey MBA2006 Chinese got summer offers in Canada and US, including finance, marketing(2), consulting, project management. They are all big companies. Some of Chinese are still on the way (second round interview), I mean summer jobs hunting in NA. Some will go back China for intern because they decide to go back upon graduation. I expect that 8-10 of us will get offers of CA or US, say 20%. I don't know the situations in other top schools. As you know, job market in Canada is just 10%, maybe less, of that in US. There is no question that MBAs in US will have more opportunities for jobs.

I don't want to comment on career management of Ivey here because I don't know what happen on CM in other schools. Let's go back to the question, why do we take MBA? If you want to change career, say from IT to IB or MC, I have to say it is tough in NA. IB and MC prefer people with great "English skill" and energy (young people). If you have deep backgrounds in industry in China or wherever, your chance of getting in industry and taking function job is big. Lets say, project management, marketing analyst, business development, financial analyst and accounting. I strongly believe, the problem of Chinese MBAs who are hunting job in NA is not simply because of "English skill", but because many of them do not have clear career objective and do not put much efforts focusing on it. We are too complacent. We don't positioning us reasonably. As far as I have stayer in BS for almost a year, I more and more realize that whether we really convinced ourselves when we answered the questions in essay during application: Why MBA? Why Now? Why Ivey? What's your goal? In my mind, once you setup the goal, you should focus, execute and be patient. If you can do that, every MBA at Ivey can find a job in NA if he/she wants regardless of "poor English skill".

sean1255, I think your current Canadian exprience will be the asset for your future job hunting upon graduation. But if you want to change career, it is not easy because it quite depends on your own ability and school will not defintely help you do that. More job postings (on campus) look better, but can not easily be transferred into even interviews. However, if you carefully prepare your resume and cover letter for each position. The probability is still high. So, that's what I said before, depends on you not the school. BTW, If you have chance to go TOP 5 or 10 of US, why not go? If not, welcome to Ivey, why not?

Thanks again, guys, hope to meet you later.

Brave

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-3-20 0:32:50编辑过]

paopao

Brave, thank you for your insightful ideas. I appreciate thm very much.

But could you please kindly tell something about job placement of immigrants after graduation from Ivey? I always believe that Ivey is a great school and most of alumus I met are very outstanding. And they told me that it is a privilege to study at Ivey. But i am pretty worrying about job placement as an immigrant after graduation from Ivey. Could you please tell something detailed from an insider?

Thank you very much .

juliaPL

I am more interested in this question now. First of all, I would like to compare the students in Ivey/Rotman/York and the students in US. They are similar but not completely the same. If you are an applicant who located in mainland and you get a good score and rather sound background, in most cases, you will apply the schools in US not in Canada. The reason is very simple. A: ranking B: job market after graduation C: if you study in US, your network is in North America, but if you study in Canada, your network is only in Canada. But why so many people apply the MBA program here and even they have the concern as the topic. Because most of the applicants are landed immigrants, they must consider about their citizenship and furthermore, they can enjoy the cheaper tution for Canadian.

Secondly, if we get the concept that most of the Chinese community in Canada are immigrants, we will understand the whole story better. A: they must have got few years experience in China( some may quit good job in China), B: most of them make the decision to pursue their MBA program under the pressure of the job market here. To be honest, if they can find a decent job in Canada, they will not choose the expensive MBA here. While the logical is just like the story of chicken and eggs. If they have good command of english, they will have better chance to get a decent job here. If they do not, how much progress will they make during a two-year program. It is hard to talk and must depends on individual. Nobody can challenge a person with attic faith and persistence.

To sum up, it must be more understandable that there is much bigger Chinese community in Canada MBA program, because their spirit is never-say-die and will try their best to make improvement in their life. If they do not possess those spirits, they will not choose immigrant since staying in China is much easier. Then at last the conclusion comes to job market again. If the job market is good, they may have more chance to get a job. If not, who will you choose if you are the employer, of course the graduate with North America experience first, because it is much easier to evaluate and get a reference. We can not neglect this factor here. Thus, Chinese without North America experience may become a poison to Canada top B-schools. They have good backgrounds in China and better academic scores, therefore they are quite competitive during the admission process. But they may have slimmer chance to find a job within 3 months after their graduation ( that is determined by the employer). After all, not only the ranking of MBA program but also the profitable point of their programs are determined by the job-hunting results of the graduates. So that is why some schools refuse Chinese applicants without North America experience and maybe some schools ranking is dragged down by Chinese. The game rule is simple. You must follow the concept of employer here( maybe it is not fair, but you can not change it). If the employer here has prejudice, then the B-schools may have prejudice also.

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-3-20 1:08:54编辑过]

Andysun

One comment on the above discussion is "English is not everything, without english you have nothing, at least in NA." However this is not to say that if your english level is not good enough, you have no chance to tack into the NA market. Rather, NA employers are more realistic. You gonna follow their rules. For example, if you wanna enter less competitive areas like accounting and technical related jobs, even tech consultant, language ability becomes less of an issue. however, mbas are graduated to pursue the opportunities in consulting, IB, marketing or much of a managerial role. Consider if you are a recruiter will you put the stake of the company at the hand of a graduate that can't even communicate with the peers or the subordinate.

However, the working backgrounds of the chinese students can become an assets of them. but i seriously doubt the transferability of these experience especially in the managerial roles. with regard to my personal observation, even those secured a "decent" job at NA are generally downgraded in a certain level, for example P&G goto SC Johnson, and generally the operations in china is way lareger than those in NA. this should not be the case. but it's a reality. NAers still has doubt on the abilities of minority students, unless you are much stronger than them. this has part reason of them and part reason of students.

from this perspective, it can be clear that language may not be the sole reason underlying sluggish job market for chinese student. sometimes we need to ask for ourselves " so what". i have seen many people stay in NA just for the sake of living. if so, i have no comment. maybe absorb everything you see and touch in NA is justified. but so what if you get into top-tier companies. do you really feel personally satisfied

i fully respect the insights given in this thread. but i don't think any people need to take the responsibility of something that is out of their control. and ranking just a piece of game. if you take too serious, you will eventually be trapped.

salute to those struggle in NA!

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-3-20 2:04:06编辑过]

bah-toronto

Anticipation of 8-10 summer intership for MBA 2006 this year?  That's really lower than what people expected.

"...In my mind, once you setup the goal, you should focus, execute and be patient. If you can do that, every MBA at Ivey can find a job in NA if he/she wants regardless of "poor English skill"." --------------- I think that's somewhat too optimistic, can't agree.

以下是引用braveMBA在2005-3-20 0:27:00的发言：

bah-toronto and sean1255:

Thanks for your contribution. Make sense. Agree with you that English communication skill is the common issue Chinese oversea MBAs are facing wherever they are. That's why I don't feel it is fair to put Ivey Chinese as the target. I have to say I am very open to discuss but once I am one of the team, I have responsibility to tell facts at Ivey not bias.

At Ivey, some of Ivey Chinese MBA2006 also got offers from US, including Michigan, Darden, Kelley, Purdue, Carlson.... Many reasons as you know stumbled them from going the states, such as visa, immigrant prison..... I don't want to compare the whole MBAspool in Canada with those in US. It seems doesn't make sense, at least to me, just because so what? When you got in a BS, I mean when you are staying here, the comparison has no value to you. You are dealing with people at THIS SCHOOL mostly.

This year, so far, 5 of Ivey MBA2006 Chinese got summer offers in Canada and US, including finance, marketing(2), consulting, project management. They are all big companies. Some of Chinese are still on the way (second round interview), I mean summer jobs hunting in NA. Some will go back China for intern because they decide to go back upon graduation. I expect that 8-10 of us will get offers of CA or US, say 20%. I don't know the situations in other top schools. As you know, job market in Canada is just 10%, maybe less, of that in US. There is no question that MBAs in US will have more opportunities for jobs.

I don't want to comment on career management of Ivey here because I don't know what happen on CM in other schools. Let's go back to the question, why do we take MBA? If you want to change career, say from IT to IB or MC, I have to say it is tough in NA. IB and MC prefer people with great "English skill" and energy (young people). If you have deep backgrounds in industry in China or wherever, your chance of getting in industry and taking function job is big. Lets say, project management, marketing analyst, business development, financial analyst and accounting. I strongly believe, the problem of Chinese MBAs who are hunting job in NA is not simply because of "English skill", but because many of them do not have clear career objective and do not put much efforts focusing on it. We are too complacent. We don't positioning us reasonably. As far as I have stayer in BS for almost a year, I more and more realize that whether we really convinced ourselves when we answered the questions in essay during application: Why MBA? Why Now? Why Ivey? What's your goal? In my mind, once you setup the goal, you should focus, execute and be patient. If you can do that, every MBA at Ivey can find a job in NA if he/she wants regardless of "poor English skill".

sean1255, I think your current Canadian exprience will be the asset for your future job hunting upon graduation. But if you want to change career, it is not easy because it quite depends on your own ability and school will not defintely help you do that. More job postings (on campus) look better, but can not easily be transferred into even interviews. However, if you carefully prepare your resume and cover letter for each position. The probability is still high. So, that's what I said before, depends on you not the school. BTW, If you have chance to go TOP 5 or 10 of US, why not go? If not, welcome to Ivey, why not?

Thanks again, guys, hope to meet you later.

Brave

bah-toronto

I think I was talking about communication skills, of which the colloquial English is just a basic and small part. That's to say, even many native speakers have poor communication skills.

以下是引用Andysun在2005-3-20 1:57:00的发言：

One comment on the above discussion is "English is not everything, without english you have nothing, at least in NA." However this is not to say that if your english level is not good enough, you have no chance to tack into the NA market. Rather, NA employers are more realistic. You gonna follow their rules. For example, if you wanna enter less competitive areas like accounting and technical related jobs, even tech consultant, language ability becomes less of an issue. however, mbas are graduated to pursue the opportunities in consulting, IB, marketing or much of a managerial role. Consider if you are a recruiter will you put the stake of the company at the hand of a graduate that can't even communicate with the peers or the subordinate.

However, the working backgrounds of the chinese students can become an assets of them. but i seriously doubt the transferability of these experience especially in the managerial roles. with regard to my personal observation, even those secured a "decent" job at NA are generally downgraded in a certain level, for example P&G goto SC Johnson, and generally the operations in china is way lareger than those in NA. this should not be the case. but it's a reality. NAers still has doubt on the abilities of minority students, unless you are much stronger than them. this has part reason of them and part reason of students.

from this perspective, it can be clear that language may not be the sole reason underlying sluggish job market for chinese student. sometimes we need to ask for ourselves " so what". i have seen many people stay in NA just for the sake of living. if so, i have no comment. maybe absorb everything you see and touch in NA is justified. but so what if you get into top-tier companies. do you really feel personally satisfied

i fully respect the insights given in this thread. but i don't think any people need to take the responsibility of something that is out of their control. and ranking just a piece of game. if you take too serious, you will eventually be trapped.

salute to those struggle in NA!

braveMBA

Bah-toronto,

I mean, so far, 8-10 summer internship for MBA 2006 this year in Canadaor US.  I don't know what is the numbers of other schools crossNA, do you have any clues of that?

Thanks.

Brave

bah-toronto

"I would like to compare the students in Ivey/Rotman/York and the students in US. They are similar but not completely the same." Excuse me, they are quite different, very very different. Especially you can't put Schulich in this basket.

以下是引用juliaPL在2005-3-20 1:05:00的发言：

I am more interested in this question now. First of all, I would like to compare the students in Ivey/Rotman/York and the students in US. They are similar but not completely the same. If you are an applicant who located in mainland and you get a good score and rather sound background, in most cases, you will apply the schools in US not in Canada. The reason is very simple. A: ranking B: job market after graduation C: if you study in US, your network is in North America, but if you study in Canada, your network is only in Canada. But why so many people apply the MBA program here and even they have the concern as the topic. Because most of the applicants are landed immigrants, they must consider about their citizenship and furthermore, they can enjoy the cheaper tution for Canadian.

Secondly, if we get the concept that most of the Chinese community in Canada are immigrants, we will understand the whole story better. A: they must have got few years experience in China( some may quit good job in China), B: most of them make the decision to pursue their MBA program under the pressure of the job market here. To be honest, if they can find a decent job in Canada, they will not choose the expensive MBA here. While the logical is just like the story of chicken and eggs. If they have good command of english, they will have better chance to get a decent job here. If they do not, how much progress will they make during a two-year program. It is hard to talk and must depends on individual. Nobody can challenge a person with attic faith and persistence.

To sum up, it must be more understandable that there is much bigger Chinese community in Canada MBA program, because their spirit is never-say-die and will try their best to make improvement in their life. If they do not possess those spirits, they will not choose immigrant since staying in China is much easier. Then at last the conclusion comes to job market again. If the job market is good, they may have more chance to get a job. If not, who will you choose if you are the employer, of course the graduate with North America experience first, because it is much easier to evaluate and get a reference. We can not neglect this factor here. Thus, Chinese without North America experience may become a poison to Canada top B-schools. They have good backgrounds in China and better academic scores, therefore they are quite competitive during the admission process. But they may have slimmer chance to find a job within 3 months after their graduation ( that is determined by the employer). After all, not only the ranking of MBA program but also the profitable point of their programs are determined by the job-hunting results of the graduates. So that is why some schools refuse Chinese applicants without North America experience and maybe some schools ranking is dragged down by Chinese. The game rule is simple. You must follow the concept of employer here( maybe it is not fair, but you can not change it). If the employer here has prejudice, then the B-schools may have prejudice also.