ron关于og 12 125中助动词的用法（已解决）

starlitcream

125. Today, because of improvements in agricultural
technology, the same amount of acreage produces
double the apples that it has in 1910.
(A) double the apples that it has
(B) twice as many apples as it did
(C) as much as twice the apples it has
(D) two times as many apples as there were
(E) a doubling of the apples that it did答案是b
我的问题是那个did
曼哈顿说如果时态改变了就不能用助动词指代了，前面是produces现在时，为什么后面变为了过去式还能指代？





http://www.beatthegmat.com/helping-verbs-in-different-tenses-t155384.html#548077
详细参见此贴 别被两位版主的讨论误导了》 《

DUKB24

umm，算是manhattan说的不太好的一个地方，贴上RON在论坛上的补充quote：


关于helping verb的更详细解释（RON）：
1 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO BE" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have another form of "to be" in the first half of the comparison.


2 * if you have than/as + subject + HELPING VERB as the second half of a comparison, then you must have the SAME helping verb (perhaps in a different tense) in the first half of the comparison.


3 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO DO" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have an ACTION VERB (or another form of "to do") in the first half of the comparison.


here are some examples:
#1
If current trends continue, by the year 2010 carbon emissions in the United States  will soar to a level more than one-third higher than that  in 1990, according to official projections.



also


parking spots are disappearing much more quickly today than they were yesterday.
#2
james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can.
i can run much faster than i could before my most recent knee operation. (note that "could" is the past tense of "can", so these are the same helping verb.)
#3
parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.
tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager. (note that "did" doesn't have to have the same tense as the action verb)




个人的理解：


example #3：很confusing的一点，这里不同的时态eats 和did（这个did竟然不是用ate；而这一点在manhattan的章节中清楚说明是要用the working verb，在不同的tense时态中）


所以呢：和大叔yavev6的讨论，大叔的理论就是manhattan上面的那个例子都是并列句，而这里这个例子是比较句


至于为什么有这种情况？



并列句也就是所谓的two independent clause，而比较句是一个independent clause里面内置的比较结构


一个是两个句子，一个是一个句子；所以，可能是为了清晰或者unambiguous，第一个的helping verb的补出在


时态不一致的情况下，是要补出 exact working verb




open to discussion

starlitcream

谢谢版主！

starlitcream

后来我又翻了曼哈顿比较章节，发现5th中130页有写在害怕引起歧义时可以用助动词代替。

铁板神猴

umm，算是manhattan说的不太好的一个地方，贴上RON在论坛上的补充quote：

关于helping verb的更详细解释（RON）：
1 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO BE" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have another form of "to be" in the first half of the comparison.

2 * if you have than/as + subject + HELPING VERB as the second half of a comparison, then you must have the SAME helping verb (perhaps in a different tense) in the first half of the comparison.

3 * if you have than/as + subject + FORM OF "TO DO" as the second half of a comparison, then you must have an ACTION VERB (or another form of "to do") in the first half of the comparison.

here are some examples:
#1
If current trends continue, by the year 2010 carbon emissions in the United States  will soar to a level more than one-third higher than that  in 1990, according to official projections.

also

parking spots are disappearing much more quickly today than they were yesterday.
#2
james can negotiate with salespeople more effectively than stephanie can.
i can run much faster than i could before my most recent knee operation. (note that "could" is the past tense of "can", so these are the same helping verb.)
#3
parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.
tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager. (note that "did" doesn't have to have the same tense as the action verb)


个人的理解：

example #3：很confusing的一点，这里不同的时态eats 和did（这个did竟然不是用ate；而这一点在manhattan的章节中清楚说明是要用the working verb，在不同的tense时态中）

所以呢：和大叔yavev6的讨论，大叔的理论就是manhattan上面的那个例子都是并列句，而这里这个例子是比较句

至于为什么有这种情况？

并列句也就是所谓的two independent clause，而比较句是一个independent clause里面内置的比较结构

一个是两个句子，一个是一个句子；所以，可能是为了清晰或者unambiguous，第一个的helping verb的补出在

时态不一致的情况下，是要补出 exact working verb

open to discussion

-- by 会员 DUKB24 (2013/1/3 22:45:03)

高！Ron的解释就是点睛之笔啊！一讲就讲到关键了。
DD, 你不知道昨天我也在纠结这个问题，哈哈！

看了你和大叔的讨论我有点想法了，和大家讨论一下~

我之前总结了几种句子的变体，结合大家的总结，我觉得这个helping verbs in different tenses的问题无论在comparison还是independent clause里面都是通用的。
就是Ron讲的那3个分类的总结，其核心精神是：
the main verb form in the first and second part of a whole sentence should be the same, including helping verbs, to be, to do, etc.

Take helping verbs for example:

a simple form changed from OG13-sc-125:
BM produces twice as many cars as it did last year. --- it's correct, for both claues own the same helping verb "do", just in different tenses (does vs did).

BM will produce twice as many cars as it did last year. --- incorrect, for "will" and "did" are two totally different forms of helping verb.
Correct one: BM will produce twice as many cars as it produced last year.

BM has produced twice as many cars as it did last year. --- for the same reason, incorrect.
Correct one: BM has produced twice as many cars as it produced last year.

Even in the independent clauses:

examples in MGMAT:
I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father DID.  ---incorrect.
I have never seen an aardvark, but last year my father SAW one. ---correct.

Now the point is what if we change the tense of the helping verb "have"?

I have never climbed over this mountain, but my (passed away) father HAD. ---it seems ok, right?
another: I didn't succeed climbing over a mountain as this high, but now my father DOES. ---also ok, right?


in conclusion, I think the key point is when in verb omission, we should assure that both main verbs' forms  of two clauses/two parts of comparison are the same, (though might in different tenses).

求DD和大叔鉴定^ ^

铁板神猴

后来我又翻了曼哈顿比较章节，发现5th中130页有写在害怕引起歧义时可以用助动词代替。

-- by 会员 starlitcream (2013/1/4 10:19:26)

star, 那页上面说的是“省略助动词与否，关键在于是否引起歧义”。是两个问题~

starlitcream

我打算等两位版主的答案了。

yakev6

?若第一部分为be+实意动词

?第二部分的Be动词时态可以不同，但是被省略动词时态必须相同。

?parking spots aredisappearing much more quickly today than they were (disappearing) yesterday.

?若助动词所在SVO省略不会影响含义，则也可省略

?parking spots are disappearing much more quickly today than they were (disappearing) yesterday.

?若第一部分为其他助动词+实意动词

?第二部分助动词时态可以不同，但被省略动词时态必须相同

?James cannegotiate with salespeople more effectively than Stephanie can(negotiate with salespeople).

?I canrun much faster than I could (run)before my most recent knee operation.

?若助动词所在SVO省略不会影响含义，则也可省略

?I can run much faster than I could (run)before my most recent knee operation.

?若第一部分为实意动词

?第二部分动词可以用助动词的不同形式代替原实意动词。

?Parking spots disappeared much faster today than they did yesterday.

?Tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager.

?若助动词所在SVO省略不会影响含义，则也可省略

?Parking spots disappeared much faster today than they didyesterday.

?Tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
以上摘自于我当时的笔记，现在有点忘了，好像是这样如果在比较句中是两个不同时态的实意动词再做比较，后面出现的实意动词可以用其时间状语限制下的助动词来替代前面的实意动词。
?Tanya eats more slowly than she did when she was a teenager.
the same amount of acreage producestwice as many apples as it didin 1910.
由于完美平行，且不会引起歧义所以不用担心不知道did到底指的是那个动作，这也就是OG解释所说的：

?An action that occurred in 1910 requires a verb in the past tense. The two elements being compared must be grammatically parallel. The same amount … produces is paralleled by as it did (produce understood). The subjects amount and it are parallel, as are the verbs produces and did (produce).

DUKB24

I have never climbed over this mountain, but my (passed away) father HAD. ---it seems ok, right?

对于这句话而言


我觉得这个补出的理解


在我的能力范围之外。。。。


had climbed？我觉得会不会是climbed比较好呢？


我反正是不太理解这里的意思


要是补出的是had，就要满足所谓的过去完成的满足条件，2个时间条件 1. 一个过去的动作 2.或者是一个second-time marker


如果这里要把现在完成时看做一个过去的动作，这貌似不太好吧，我对现在完成时的理解还局限在以现在的眼光看待过去的事情，我还是觉得不要把这个时态单纯的当做一般过去时来处理

DUKB24

我也觉得大叔说的完美平行是一个很好的点