2011届全美MBA投行暑期实习统计贴

michaelchenma

Agree everything. However, I do want to clear one misconception about outsourcing. What you see nowadays is a lot of proven engineering practices got outsourced. For example, IT in big company. Innovation and creativity are NEVER outsourced. In Internet domain, you see Facebook, Apple... In energy domain, you see a lot of energy startups. Although there are a lot of problems (I'm not getting into it today), these jobs are still much in high demand.

A little over 10 years ago, computer (CS, software, internet, whatever you want to call it. ) is what everyone is after. And that was the driving force of economy, U.S at least. Of course, nowadays, computer got outsourced heavily. I always wonder will finance becomes the next computer? Go from boom to burst?

thanks! Your perspective is really illuminating. Honestly, I just love US, the country... and hope that I can make a life there. But I don't want to totally ruin my career, and do some like plate-washing jobs in US. Otherwise, it would be much better for me to stay and work in HK, and be a permanent resident here later... So kind of estimating the chance that I can make a decent life in US now... and want to gain some advices from veterans, like you.=) thx a lot!

-- by 会员 lichenkan (2010/5/10 17:59:24)

Well, what do you love about it?  If you love the environment, the more tranquil suburban life, and stuff like that, then you will likely be happier about the sacrifices you would have to make.  But if you love America because of this vague, unrealistic idea that it's somehow more equal, fair, and "free" than China (which a lot of people on these forums think), then you will soon realize that a lot of the freedom and opportunities here are reserved for the wealthy and the pedigreed, which really isn't all that different than China.      

I think people have reasonable success when they come here and do "stable" but lower income jobs such as accounting or engineering (engineering is getting outsourced too, so who knows).  In terms of finance, it's really, really hard for a Chinese person to break through the glass ceiling (assoc level and above).  Besides some quant trading/HF roles, the rest of finance is really more relationship driven than analysis driven.  eople who excel in the relationship business are usually the white males that went to prep school, went to a top undergrad college, and grew up playing golf in a country club his entire life.  You may think that you can work better than those guys or are smarter than them, and you are probably right.  But regardless, they will be the ones that make MDs and partners.  I don't want to discourage anyone, but you need to think about stuff like this before you make such a big decision.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 2:54:09)

REgirl07

totally agree..
不过话说回来，中国也是一样。投行也好，PE也好，大把大把太子党。一样是看出身看关系背景吃饭的地方。。。
没点背景光凭个人努力搞不定大型国企的。。

-- by 会员 stq (2010/5/11 5:00:26)

Yep - I won't name names or give details, but I know of a few such "太子党" that got into both HBS/S, certainly not on their own merits.  But then again, I also know of a few sons/daughters of American CEOs and politicians who also got in, thanks to their parents.  The top private schools are all notorious for relationship admits, which explains their large endowments...
It's easy to think that the grass is greener on the other side, but every country and every culture has its own problems.  And humans, as a collective race, have always reserved special treatment for the few wealthy and powerful people.  Governments and political systems can change, but this fundamental trait has never changed.  

hissom

totally agree..
不过话说回来，中国也是一样。投行也好，PE也好，大把大把太子党。一样是看出身看关系背景吃饭的地方。。。
没点背景光凭个人努力搞不定大型国企的。。

-- by 会员 stq (2010/5/11 5:00:26)

Yep - I won't name names or give details, but I know of a few such "太子党" that got into both HBS/S, certainly not on their own merits.  But then again, I also know of a few sons/daughters of American CEOs and politicians who also got in, thanks to their parents.  The top private schools are all notorious for relationship admits, which explains their large endowments...
It's easy to think that the grass is greener on the other side, but every country and every culture has its own problems.  And humans, as a collective race, have always reserved special treatment for the few wealthy and powerful people.  Governments and political systems can change, but this fundamental trait has never changed.  

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 5:41:06)

我认识一堆太子党，轻而易举的做成一个事儿。正常，背景和智商才华一样是老天给的，提前注定的。“自己奋斗”出来的爹妈给了你个好点的脑子，高干爹妈给了他好的背景，一样是特殊资源，世界本来就没有公平（精英们智商比一般人高难道就公平了？）商业社会尤其。

REgirl07

Agree everything. However, I do want to clear one misconception about outsourcing. What you see nowadays is a lot of proven engineering practices got outsourced. For example, IT in big company. Innovation and creativity are NEVER outsourced. In Internet domain, you see Facebook, Apple... In energy domain, you see a lot of energy startups. Although there are a lot of problems (I'm not getting into it today), these jobs are still much in high demand.

A little over 10 years ago, computer (CS, software, internet, whatever you want to call it. ) is what everyone is after. And that was the driving force of economy, U.S at least. Of course, nowadays, computer got outsourced heavily. I always wonder will finance becomes the next computer? Go from boom to burst?

[

Programming is the main tech job that's getting outsourced.  I agree that creativity and innovation can never be outsourced, but then again, you don't see many Chinese immigrants at these roles.  Asian students in general are perceived to be very good workers, but not very good entrepreneurs and innovators.  I know that's not a fair perception, but that is the perception governing your employment chances.  Sure, you can also try to start something in your basement, but you will need as much luck in the U.S. as you do else where.  

As for finance, I am frankly surprised that it hasn't been outsourced.  I guess the thesis is that you need to train the future MDs and partners, so you have to hire young people in the finacial centers.  But for every analyst they hire, they can easily hire 10 analysts in China or India who would do the same work for 1/10 of the pay.  

michaelchenma

Again, very insightful comments. "Programming is the main tech job that's getting outsourced." This is the problem I mentioned earlier. All these entry-level programming jobs are outsourced and are gradually eliminated. However, these entry-level jobs are also the prep ground for future entrepreneurs. So this is definitely a very dangerous road to go through.

There is a difference between Chinese and immigrants. Immigrants cannot afford a lot of free spirit and daredevil endeavor simply because of the baggage comes with immigration process. Nevertheless, a lot of Chinese immigrants in their 40s are beginning to establish their own business and are generally doing well.

If you can hire some Chinese in China to write C++ code for you at 1/10 of cost, I don't understand why can't financial institution hires Chinese to do excel and PPT at 1/10 of cost too. Don't forget, merely 10 years ago, the belief is that "high tech, such as writing computer code, can only be done in the U.S."  

Programming is the main tech job that's getting outsourced.  I agree that creativity and innovation can never be outsourced, but then again, you don't see many Chinese immigrants at these roles.  Asian students in general are perceived to be very good workers, but not very good entrepreneurs and innovators.  I know that's not a fair perception, but that is the perception governing your employment chances.  Sure, you can also try to start something in your basement, but you will need as much luck in the U.S. as you do else where.  

As for finance, I am frankly surprised that it hasn't been outsourced.  I guess the thesis is that you need to train the future MDs and partners, so you have to hire young people in the finacial centers.  But for every analyst they hire, they can easily hire 10 analysts in China or India who would do the same work for 1/10 of the pay.  

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 6:03:15)

hissom

Actually some hf in NYC started outsourcing some quant programming development already.

Again, very insightful comments. "Programming is the main tech job that's getting outsourced." This is the problem I mentioned earlier. All these entry-level programming jobs are outsourced and are gradually eliminated. However, these entry-level jobs are also the prep ground for future entrepreneurs. So this is definitely a very dangerous road to go through.

There is a difference between Chinese and immigrants. Immigrants cannot afford a lot of free spirit and daredevil endeavor simply because of the baggage comes with immigration process. Nevertheless, a lot of Chinese immigrants in their 40s are beginning to establish their own business and are generally doing well.

If you can hire some Chinese in China to write C++ code for you at 1/10 of cost, I don't understand why can't financial institution hires Chinese to do excel and PPT at 1/10 of cost too. Don't forget, merely 10 years ago, the belief is that "high tech, such as writing computer code, can only be done in the U.S."  

Programming is the main tech job that's getting outsourced.  I agree that creativity and innovation can never be outsourced, but then again, you don't see many Chinese immigrants at these roles.  Asian students in general are perceived to be very good workers, but not very good entrepreneurs and innovators.  I know that's not a fair perception, but that is the perception governing your employment chances.  Sure, you can also try to start something in your basement, but you will need as much luck in the U.S. as you do else where.  

As for finance, I am frankly surprised that it hasn't been outsourced.  I guess the thesis is that you need to train the future MDs and partners, so you have to hire young people in the finacial centers.  But for every analyst they hire, they can easily hire 10 analysts in China or India who would do the same work for 1/10 of the pay.  

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 6:03:15)

-- by 会员 michaelchenma (2010/5/11 6:23:59)

orchidq

thanks! Your perspective is really illuminating. Honestly, I just love US, the country... and hope that I can make a life there. But I don't want to totally ruin my career, and do some like plate-washing jobs in US. Otherwise, it would be much better for me to stay and work in HK, and be a permanent resident here later... So kind of estimating the chance that I can make a decent life in US now... and want to gain some advices from veterans, like you.=) thx a lot!

-- by 会员 lichenkan (2010/5/10 17:59:24)

Well, what do you love about it?  If you love the environment, the more tranquil suburban life, and stuff like that, then you will likely be happier about the sacrifices you would have to make.  But if you love America because of this vague, unrealistic idea that it's somehow more equal, fair, and "free" than China (which a lot of people on these forums think), then you will soon realize that a lot of the freedom and opportunities here are reserved for the wealthy and the pedigreed, which really isn't all that different than China.      

I think people have reasonable success when they come here and do "stable" but lower income jobs such as accounting or engineering (engineering is getting outsourced too, so who knows).  In terms of finance, it's really, really hard for a Chinese person to break through the glass ceiling (assoc level and above).  Besides some quant trading/HF roles, the rest of finance is really more relationship driven than analysis driven.  eople who excel in the relationship business are usually the white males that went to prep school, went to a top undergrad college, and grew up playing golf in a country club his entire life.  You may think that you can work better than those guys or are smarter than them, and you are probably right.  But regardless, they will be the ones that make MDs and partners.  I don't want to discourage anyone, but you need to think about stuff like this before you make such a big decision.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 2:54:09)

谢谢REgirl07这么中肯的见解~~~我觉得其实对于多数人来说（至少我是这样），对米国并没有什么不切实际的幻想，自由啊，平等啊，都是相对的，也没有幻想米国公司的人际关系能有多么简单，毕竟有人的地方就会有8g，有bitch~~~之所以想去米国读书并工作一小段时间，很大程度上是丰富一下人生阅历，体验一下不同的文化氛围，虽然相对来说成本大了点=。=可能我还是比较理想主义吧~~~~看了这么多帖子，也一定程度上了解了米国的就业形势，MC\IB\PE\VC\HF这些我都不幻想，就是想问问还有什么样的career的出路能够既满足我能够留在米国体验工作一段时间，回来之后再找工作也不太困难~~~~
主要想了解一下商业银行招收MBA，在当地就业的情况，可能行业相对大家来说比较低端，您若知道的话很希望能分享下~~~~先谢谢了~~~

NYUSternMBA

有很多啊，象CITI BANK的financial management program， JPMORGAN CHASE的PROGRAM，还有AMERICA EXPRESS等很多银行都有类似的项目，主要是做CORPORATE FINANCE 为主的。MBA毕业后在一个商业银行里面做一个BD， STRATEGY, CORPORATE FINANCE 都不少，base salary 也不错。life style 好。

thanks! Your perspective is really illuminating. Honestly, I just love US, the country... and hope that I can make a life there. But I don't want to totally ruin my career, and do some like plate-washing jobs in US. Otherwise, it would be much better for me to stay and work in HK, and be a permanent resident here later... So kind of estimating the chance that I can make a decent life in US now... and want to gain some advices from veterans, like you.=) thx a lot!

-- by 会员 lichenkan (2010/5/10 17:59:24)

Well, what do you love about it?  If you love the environment, the more tranquil suburban life, and stuff like that, then you will likely be happier about the sacrifices you would have to make.  But if you love America because of this vague, unrealistic idea that it's somehow more equal, fair, and "free" than China (which a lot of people on these forums think), then you will soon realize that a lot of the freedom and opportunities here are reserved for the wealthy and the pedigreed, which really isn't all that different than China.      

I think people have reasonable success when they come here and do "stable" but lower income jobs such as accounting or engineering (engineering is getting outsourced too, so who knows).  In terms of finance, it's really, really hard for a Chinese person to break through the glass ceiling (assoc level and above).  Besides some quant trading/HF roles, the rest of finance is really more relationship driven than analysis driven.  eople who excel in the relationship business are usually the white males that went to prep school, went to a top undergrad college, and grew up playing golf in a country club his entire life.  You may think that you can work better than those guys or are smarter than them, and you are probably right.  But regardless, they will be the ones that make MDs and partners.  I don't want to discourage anyone, but you need to think about stuff like this before you make such a big decision.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 2:54:09)

谢谢REgirl07这么中肯的见解~~~我觉得其实对于多数人来说（至少我是这样），对米国并没有什么不切实际的幻想，自由啊，平等啊，都是相对的，也没有幻想米国公司的人际关系能有多么简单，毕竟有人的地方就会有8g，有bitch~~~之所以想去米国读书并工作一小段时间，很大程度上是丰富一下人生阅历，体验一下不同的文化氛围，虽然相对来说成本大了点=。=可能我还是比较理想主义吧~~~~看了这么多帖子，也一定程度上了解了米国的就业形势，MC\IB\PE\VC\HF这些我都不幻想，就是想问问还有什么样的career的出路能够既满足我能够留在米国体验工作一段时间，回来之后再找工作也不太困难~~~~
主要想了解一下商业银行招收MBA，在当地就业的情况，可能行业相对大家来说比较低端，您若知道的话很希望能分享下~~~~先谢谢了~~~

-- by 会员 orchidq (2010/5/11 9:59:30)

orchidq

有很多啊，象CITI BANK的financial management program， JPMORGAN CHASE的PROGRAM，还有AMERICA EXPRESS等很多银行都有类似的项目，主要是做CORPORATE FINANCE 为主的。MBA毕业后在一个商业银行里面做一个BD， STRATEGY, CORPORATE FINANCE 都不少，base salary 也不错。life style 好。

thanks! Your perspective is really illuminating. Honestly, I just love US, the country... and hope that I can make a life there. But I don't want to totally ruin my career, and do some like plate-washing jobs in US. Otherwise, it would be much better for me to stay and work in HK, and be a permanent resident here later... So kind of estimating the chance that I can make a decent life in US now... and want to gain some advices from veterans, like you.=) thx a lot!

-- by 会员 lichenkan (2010/5/10 17:59:24)

Well, what do you love about it?  If you love the environment, the more tranquil suburban life, and stuff like that, then you will likely be happier about the sacrifices you would have to make.  But if you love America because of this vague, unrealistic idea that it's somehow more equal, fair, and "free" than China (which a lot of people on these forums think), then you will soon realize that a lot of the freedom and opportunities here are reserved for the wealthy and the pedigreed, which really isn't all that different than China.      

I think people have reasonable success when they come here and do "stable" but lower income jobs such as accounting or engineering (engineering is getting outsourced too, so who knows).  In terms of finance, it's really, really hard for a Chinese person to break through the glass ceiling (assoc level and above).  Besides some quant trading/HF roles, the rest of finance is really more relationship driven than analysis driven.  eople who excel in the relationship business are usually the white males that went to prep school, went to a top undergrad college, and grew up playing golf in a country club his entire life.  You may think that you can work better than those guys or are smarter than them, and you are probably right.  But regardless, they will be the ones that make MDs and partners.  I don't want to discourage anyone, but you need to think about stuff like this before you make such a big decision.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/5/11 2:54:09)

谢谢REgirl07这么中肯的见解~~~我觉得其实对于多数人来说（至少我是这样），对米国并没有什么不切实际的幻想，自由啊，平等啊，都是相对的，也没有幻想米国公司的人际关系能有多么简单，毕竟有人的地方就会有8g，有bitch~~~之所以想去米国读书并工作一小段时间，很大程度上是丰富一下人生阅历，体验一下不同的文化氛围，虽然相对来说成本大了点=。=可能我还是比较理想主义吧~~~~看了这么多帖子，也一定程度上了解了米国的就业形势，MC\IB\PE\VC\HF这些我都不幻想，就是想问问还有什么样的career的出路能够既满足我能够留在米国体验工作一段时间，回来之后再找工作也不太困难~~~~
主要想了解一下商业银行招收MBA，在当地就业的情况，可能行业相对大家来说比较低端，您若知道的话很希望能分享下~~~~先谢谢了~~~

-- by 会员 orchidq (2010/5/11 9:59:30)

-- by 会员 NYUSternMBA (2010/5/11 10:10:35)

谢谢NYU的前辈了！！！！！之前一直都关注IB，等了解清楚了发现自己还真是不适合这条路~~~~
那请问您以上说的这些商行也有所谓的target school之说么？如果有的话是跟IB 所谓的target school相同呢？还是兼容性更加强一点，包含到cornell\tuck\ross\yale之类的？


找这些工作的话一般纯大陆过去的，是能在米国当地工作呢，还是也像IB那样绝大多数或主动或被动的选择去了HK？


salary和life style您能大概描述一下么？版上对IB的讨论铺天盖地，但是CB这方面的信息少的可怜=。=


还有您上面说的CORPORATE FINANCE不是指的investment banking的另外一种称呼的那种意思吧？对应的工作内容做到高层是CFO的那种工作性质？？


不好意思，我的问题太白痴了，请大牛们解惑~~~~~感谢感谢！！！！！

withmoon

和ls同问