关于代词指代的问题，请各位大侠看过来。

gemj

关于代词的指代问题，我想下面几点是明确的：
1)    并无就近指代的规则，如果看到代词就将其等同于前面最靠近它的、在数上与其一致的名词，肯定是错误的。不仅如此，我们也不应该以就近指代的思路想问题；
2)    从句中的做主语的代词优先指代主句主语。这是ETS认可的规则。但注意是“优先”，不是“永远”，否则下面的句子就无法解释了；
12.    The Olympic Games helped to keep peace among the pugnacious states of the Greek world in that a sacred truce was proclaimed during the festival’s month.
(A) world in that a sacred truce was proclaimed during the festival’s month
(B) world, proclaiming a sacred truce during the festival’s month
(C) world when they proclaimed a sacred truce for the festival month
(D) world, for a sacred truce was proclaimed during the month of the festival
(E) world by proclamation of a sacred truce that was for the month of the festival
3)    逻辑判定是无比重要的。如果“优先指代”使得句子不通，则需要通过逻辑来判定其指代的对象。当然，这也适合于没有“优先指代”规则可用的情况；
4)    我们不应该试图寻找（实际上也不存在）一条简单的、适用任何情况的通则来判定代词的指代对象。正因为如此，代词的指代问题才具有挑战性，代词指代才能成为ETS喜欢的考点。如果一条简单规则就可以搞定所有题目，那还有考的必要与价值吗？

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-9-23 0:02:50编辑过]

xianwharton

og 227的代词指代问题
227. Judicial rules in many states require that the identi-ties of all prosecution witnesses are made known to defendants so they can attempt to rebut the testi-mony, but the Constitution explicitly requires only that the defendant have the opportunity to confront an accuser in court.
(A) that the identities of all prosecution witnesses are made known to defendants so they can attempt to rebut
(B) that the identities of all prosecution witnesses be made known to defendants so that they can attempt to rebut
(C) that the defendants should know the identities of all prosecution witnesses so they can attempt a rebuttal of
(D) the identities of all prosecution witnesses should be made known to defendants so they can attempt rebutting
(E) making known to defendants the identities of all prosecution witnesses so that they can attempt to rebut
In English the subjunctive mood is used to express a wish or requirement that a certain course of action be taken. Such phrasing takes the form to wish [or] require that x be y, not that x should be y or that x is y. Choice B, therefore, is best. In place of the subjunctive, A uses the indicative are and E uses an awkward gerund, making, while C and D contain the unnecessary should. A and C also omit that after so, and D omits that after require. The phrase attempt to rebut is more idiomatic than the phrases that replace it in C and D. Choices C and E awkwardly place the plural noun witnesses between the plural pronoun they and its referent, defendants.
请问so that 后的they 在语法上是不是优先指代the identities of all prosecution witnesses，但从逻辑上是指代defendants，那这种情况下我觉得就是指代不清了，不知对不对

gemj

以下是引用xianwharton在2003-9-23 19:20:00的发言：
请问so that 后的they 在语法上是不是优先指代the identities of all prosecution witnesses，但从逻辑上是指代defendants，那这种情况下我觉得就是指代不清了，不知对不对

B选项中的they的指代不是完美清晰的。凡是不符合“优先指代”规则的情况都会出现这样的问题。
但不能说这种情况就是指代不清了，因为这个选项从逻辑的角度看，其中they是不可能指代identities的，只能指代人。从逻辑的角度能够清晰地判断其指代对象。
更不能说这就是错误的，毕竟“优先指代”是“优先”，不是永远。
或者说违背“优先指代”规则的选项有可能是正确的选项。
毕竟，世界上没有完美无缺的语言。
或者以安哥的话来说，这只是EFFECTIVENESS的问题，而非CORRECTIVENESS。

remeo

建议大家通过美国人来解释一下这个问题应该会更有用些，
我去email问问，看看有无更好的意见

xianwharton

gemj是这样的，我是看了bravemba的一个帖子才有如下疑问的，总觉得ets要想让一选项错那他肯定能找出理由来：OG中很多地方在解释代词指代，尤其是it的代词指代问题，更容易出现混淆。关于就近指代和主语优先的问题，我觉得不是关键，完全可以通过逻辑意思的判断跳过。例如OG中另外一个经典的代词指代的例子。OG50。

50. As a baby emerges from the darkness of the womb with a rudimentary sense of vision, it would be rated about 20/500, or legally blind if it were an adult with such vision.
A.As a baby emerges from the darkness of the womb with a rudimentary sense of vision, it would be rated about 20/500, or legally blind if it were an adult with such vision.
B.A baby emerges from the darkness of the womb with a rudimentary sense of vision that would be rated about 20/500, or legally blind as an adult.
C.As a baby emerges from the darkness of the womb, its rudimentary sense of vision would be rated about 20/500; qualifying it to be legally blind if an adult.
D.A baby emerges from the darkness of the womb with a rudimentary sense of vision that would be rated about 20/500; an adult with such vision would be deemed legally blind.
E.As a baby emerges from the darkness of the womb, its rudimentary sense of vision, which would deemed legally blind for an adult, would be rated about 20/500.

看OG的解释，根本就是在做逻辑题，抓住了一个核心问题，人和视力的关系，几乎所有的解释都在围绕指代逻辑合理性说。
OG是这么解释A的：
In choice A, it, the subject of the main clause, seems to refer to baby, the subject of the subordinate clause; thus, A seems to state that the newborn baby, rather than its sense of vision, would be rated 20/500.
所以语法上的优先指代，如果存在逻辑意思的混淆，当然也就发生了指代模糊的问题，
那么在A 中it 从语法上我们可知其指代baby，但我们从逻辑上可判断它是指its sense of vision那从逻辑上说A 就不应该错了，请讨论。

gemj

以下是引用xianwharton在2003-9-24 9:07:00的发言：
gemj是这样的，我是看了bravemba的一个帖子才有如下疑问的，总觉得ets要想让一选项错那他肯定能找出理由来：OG中很多地方在解释代词指代，尤其是it的代词指代问题，更容易出现混淆。关于就近指代和主语优先的问题，我觉得不是关键，完全可以通过逻辑意思的判断跳过。例如OG中另外一个经典的代词指代的例子。OG50。
所以语法上的优先指代，如果存在逻辑意思的混淆，当然也就发生了指代模糊的问题，
那么在A 中it 从语法上我们可知其指代baby，但我们从逻辑上可判断它是指its sense of vision那从逻辑上说A 就不应该错了，请讨论。

这个例子并不影响我的结论。
这个题目不选A，是因为A中的第一个IT可能导致混乱和误解，而相比而言，D是多么地完美无缺啊！
更况且A中的第二个it无论指代什么都说不通。ETS在解释错误的时候，好多的错误它不谈，不知是何居心？况且本题的第二个错误更加严重！

再说一遍我的意思：出现这种有可能产生歧义的指代时，也就是句子的有效性（EFFECTIVENESS）出现问题时，我们要高度警惕。如果有更好的选项，则将其抛弃！
但并不是说看它就不可能成为正确的答案。

By the way, xianwharton的确切的意思是什么我还不是十分清楚。
你是说我的什么观点有问题，还是想找一条确定的法则应对所有的题目？

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-9-24 12:03:20编辑过]

gemj

以下是引用xianwharton在2003-9-24 9:07:00的发言：
那么在A 中it 从语法上我们可知其指代baby，但我们从逻辑上可判断它是指its sense of vision那从逻辑上说A 就不应该错了，请讨论。

就算没有A中的第二个错误，也不能选A，因为D比它好。
如果A中没有其它的错误，不能说A是错的，只能说它不好，不完美，它将堕落成一个矮子，矮子也有可能当将军；但不是肯定要当将军。

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-9-24 14:35:03编辑过]

xianwharton

35. In June of 1987, The Bridge of Trinquetaille, Vincent van Gogh's view of an iron bridge over the Rhone sold for $20.2 million and it was the second highest price ever paid for a painting at auction.
(A) Rhone sold for $20.2 million and it was
(B) Rhone, which sold for $20.2 million, was
(C) Rhone, was sold for $20.2 million,
(D) Rhone was sold for $20.2 million, being
(E) Rhone, sold for $20.2 million, and was
A comma is needed after Rhone in choices A and D to set off the modifying phrase that begins Vincent...; without the comma, the phrase appears to be part of the main clause, and it is thus unclear what noun should govern the verb sold. Furthermore, it in A has no logical referent, and being in D is not idiomatic. Choices B and E produce the illogical statement that the painting was the second highest price. Choice C, the best answer, avoids this problem by using a noun phrase in which price clearly refers to $20.2 million. And by using a comma after Rhone to set off the phrase that modifies The Bridge of Trinquetaille, C makes the painting the subject of was sold.
为什么it 不能指代$20.2 million

60. According to a recent poll, owning and living in a freestanding house on its own land is still a goal of a majority of young adults, like that of earlier generations.
(A) like that of earlier generations
(B) as that for earlier generations
(C) just as earlier generations did
(D) as have earlier generations
(E) as it was of earlier generations
The intended comparison should be completed by a clause beginning with as and containing a subject and verb that correspond to the subject and verb of the main clause. In E, the best choice, it refers unambiguously to the phrasal subject owning ... land, the verb was corresponds to is, and today's young adults are appropriately compared to earlier genera-tions. Choices A and B lack a verb corresponding to is and a clear referent for that. Choices C and D are confusing and illogical because their verbs, did and have, cannot substitute for is in the main clause.
为什么that 不能指代a goal

gemj

以下是引用xianwharton在2003-9-26 11:08:00的发言：
60. According to a recent poll, owning and living in a freestanding house on its own land is still a goal of a majority of young adults, like that of earlier generations.
(A) like that of earlier generations
(B) as that for earlier generations
(C) just as earlier generations did
(D) as have earlier generations
(E) as it was of earlier generations
为什么that 不能指代a goal

不是不可以指代，是不能明确地指代a goal。
注意ETS的解释是：
Choices A and B lack a verb corresponding to is and a clear referent for that.

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-9-27 0:05:52编辑过]

xianwharton

gmej我的意思就i是为什么不能clear referent for that，根据逻辑意思that 明显指代a goal，虽然也可能指代owning and living in a freestanding house on its own land但owning and living in a freestanding house on its own land和a goal是用is连接的，两者是同等的概念，所以我认为不存在clear referent for that 的问题。