why I say so much bad things about ivey?

richardg047

好贴!在辩论中我了解到了更多,谢谢你们!

weewee

说好话总是容易的，说实话是容易挨砖的。很多拍砖人的理论是，你既然都在里面了何不如乖乖接受现实、打碎了牙偷偷往肚子里咽，再怎么你既然都是它的人了怎么还能说他坏话，你选择了学校再说它不好就是不够loyal。

lz说话很中肯，是站在第3方的角度作客观分析的，不觉得有什么争议。任何学校都有其好坏2面，有机会看看通常避而不谈的那一面是好事，对后面的申请人大有好处。当然，这也惹毛了一些人在校的人和已经决定去那里的人，毕竟被人说自己的学校不好总是让人不悦的。

ppbb

说好话总是容易的，说实话是容易挨砖的。- Contrary to -任何学校都有其好坏2面

(Subjective conclusion)很多拍砖人的理论是，你既然都在里面了何不如乖乖接受现实、打碎了牙偷偷往肚子里咽，再怎么你既然都是它的人了怎么还能说他坏话，你选择了学校再说它不好就是不够loyal。

lz说话很中肯，是站在第3方的角度作客观分析的，不觉得有什么争议。任何学校都有其好坏2面，有机会看看通常避而不谈的那一面是好事，对后面的申请人大有好处。(Subjective conclusion, without knowing the specific situations of applicants.)

当然，这也惹毛(Subjective conclusion and offending language)了一些人在校的人和已经决定去那里的人(either or no choice,is there any third party here? Of course yes. It's an open forum.)，毕竟被人说自己的学校不好总是让人不悦的。

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-10 13:03:46编辑过]

weewee

申明：本人所有言论仅代表个人意见，简称subjective conclusion。

支持楼主。鄙视某些@%#$%的~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

oracleunix

以下是引用weewee在2006-1-11 1:41:00的发言：

申明：本人所有言论仅代表个人意见，简称subjective conclusion。

支持楼主。鄙视某些@%#$%的~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

鄙视麻？

oracleunix

以下是引用braveMBA在2006-1-10 12:07:00的发言：

I did my summer in a US industry consulting firm and got a not bad offer now, above Ivey's average. Second year Chinese MBAs at Ivey have got 8 offers now which are all from very decent companies. Sean1225, maybe you don't communicate with second yr students very often, so you don't know. Yes, I agree, we still have a long way to go regarding job huntings for Chinese as a group. However, I believe job hunting are mostly about yourself and job market, not the school even though I don't think career management at Ivey does a good job.

这么多offers, 超牛。 霉果的top10也会自惭形秽。

weewee

以下是引用oracleunix在2006-1-11 1:45:00的发言：

鄙视麻？

要鄙视的东西其实和本贴本版无关。最近看天涯讨论朱令事件，及其鄙视当年那个班的团支书。偏题了~~~~~~~~

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-11 1:54:11编辑过]

dinosaure

以下是引用sean1255在2006-1-9 12:39:00的发言：

while the school keeps on alluring chinese students, its system is designed that you will not be strong in academic studies. its extremely high portion in class participation, team work based mid term exams, kills almost all posibilities that you can surpass local students in marks. in addition, your background in china will not be counted in canada(highly possible).

combined these two factors, chances for chinese students to find decent jobs in canada after graduation are very very slim.  when you apply for jobs or interns, you will find out that most of the postings that pay the highest salary do require your marks. let me ask you a question: as chinese students, how can you differentiate yourself if 1) your marks are lower 2)you donot have north america experience 3)your english skills are much worse? If you could help me out, then I really want to thank you.

I would not blame the system of Ivey. Even foreign students have themselve in the Dean list, they still have little chance to find a job in Consulting industry or Investment banking. For other industries, you can easily get the enough grades! If you were Ivey, what's your tactic?  By the way, there is a native girl who already got the offer from Boston Consulting Group .She is not in the Dean list.

Ivey is full with smart guys, no body complains as much as you did.

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-11 7:45:54编辑过]

sean1255

well, another bravemba from ivey.  

''Actually, my point is simple, if you don't like it, don't go for it. If you choose it, show respect to your choice and get the best result from it or quit as early as possible. ''

how can you really know before you get in? especially many are painting rosy pictures about the school, including some chinese students just like you, last year when we argued, you did not mention the reality of chinese students in the school, you did not analyze the job market in canada for us.....all you and others wrote was purely all the good comments about ivey sound all familiar---forget about the rankings, every school is different and cannot be judged, ivey is no1 school even with ranking 40 sth, case method with if you are up to the challenge theme, and some examples of good jobs, and how warm and welcome you guys feel at ivey. (well the last might be true before you get in...hehehe)

yes i chose ivey, does that mean i have to hide the truth? to me, telling the truth really shows respect to myself and others. moreover, yes, i would like to quit, who will repay me the cost of tuition, time and lost income? ivey or you?

to me, some ivey students are just like direct selling, you bought into it and found out the truth, then you just want to recoup from draging more people into it. while i can see the logic of doing that in direct selling, i am really wondering what initiatives that you guys have.

the truth is simple: most of the students in ivey donot have excellent experience, and qualifications (cga, cfa...), therefore the only thing we have is to study hard and get good marks, actually that is the most important factor that we can differentiate ourselves and compete with local students for jobs.if you can have good academic results, then at least you might make it to the short list of interview candidates, then at least you could give it a shot. to me, if i can be given a fair chance by studying hard and standing out, then i have nothing to say, if i cannot get the job, it is my fault, simple as that.

but in ivey, things are different. chinese students majorly do have better academic ability and stronger experience before they came to ivey. However since the school designs the system in such a way that we lost the only advantage that we might have, so we are eliminated even before the game begins.  combined with the declining ranking of ivey and the very limited canadian job market, going to ivey is very risky and not rewarding at all.

i really donot see how you can argue that, besides, some guys basically tell me to shut up because i said bad things about ivey. well then could i tell you guys to shut up since you simply mislead guys in china who are applying for b schools?

now let me address some of your points in your posting.

your points are kind of representative among some of the chinese students. and all your beginning point is that well we are chinese, and therefore, doing bad in ivey is acceptable. we will do bad in other north america schools too. so if we have 4 on the dean's list, we have huge success. if we have job offers, we should feel grateful. then your logic goes we are chinese, our personality determines that we are weaker than others. So the school is a great school and doing a fine job, it is our fault that we cannot compete with others.

well i donot agree that at all. actually i think that is bs.

when we applied, chinese students usually have much higher gmat scores and stronger background. well then you say, gmat does not mean anything, b school rewards good experience. ok, as far as i know, many chinese students are actually from manager level when they were in china, for local students? i donot see that. well then you go that well, local students have stronger personality and are determined to do better, maybe you really believe that, but i donot. then why we chinese students, when graduate from ivey, have to pick up the rest jobs that others donot want? i donot know the 2nd year's information as much as you do, but could you please honestly answer the following questions?

first for yourself, well you say you got an offer above average, what is your average standard? according to ivey official data, the average salary is near CA$100k, have you reached that level? if you have, then congraduations to you!

Second, for the 8 offers that chinese students got, i know some are really not that great jobs, such as manager trainee position, probably pay at around 50k, to me, those jobs do not mean anything. if you could list the jobs, to see how many are ibanking or consulting, then your arguement about chinese students can achieve great results in ivey would make a solid ground.

third, you should compare chinese students' results with other students'. how many local students got offers? how abuot their offers? then look at the data of chinese students, then you can see the point.

forth, it is true that som local students without related experience and dean's list got offers from consulting firms, but it is very very rare case, and will not happen to chinese students at all. could you tell me is it true that the 1st round ibank consulting jobs all require your transcript and in many cases clearly states that you shall not apply if you are not in the dean's list? To me it is very understandable. if you have related experience in the industry (which most of the students do not have), or you have some certification (cga, cfa..., which again most of the students do not have), then your marks is the most important thing that gets you into the interview. but the ivey system eventually blocks almost all the possibilities that you might have.

well you could argue again, saying that going to interviews does not equal to get the offer, but could you show me another way to get to the interview list without related experience+certification+screwed up marks like most of chinese students have?  or could you show me another way to get offer without even making the interview list? if you could, then really many many thanks.

well, it is an ok school and based on different cases, there are a few chinese people find good jobs (very very rare!!) in canada and usa. but my point is very simple, going to ivey is a risk investment for chinese students, much much risky than applying for us schools or simply local b schools. and i want to give guys in china who are considering applying to b schools some facts and warnings.  

as to me, i got 10k award from ivey too when i applied, and considering the situation of my family, i chose to go to ivey because i could take care of my family. it is a trade off between myself and my family.

at the same time, i am not complaining at all, i have made the decision, so i have to go ahead without return. complaining is for coward, but i am not. I will not give up the battle by simplying saying " i am lower or worse than others". instead, i will fight my way through. but i think it is my responsibility to tell others the truth.

And i am just curious about the comments about 'grey cat'. at least, i got my own companies and became millionaire in china when i was 25. have you guys made it?

sorry i tried to keep my comments unbiased, but some comments just donot respect others' views at all.

zdcgy

thank you for sharing these insiders' information which is revealing. it seems that the most important reason for ivey's job-hunting problem is the inactive job market in canada.