10万$工作和TOP MBA, 选哪个?

bunnier

以下是引用hhxx1在2004-7-7 15:30:00的发言：
正在思想斗争．　是放弃１０万$的工作，去读一个TOP (5?) MBA，还是part time读Berkley Haas?
目前在一top software company做software development，　想向general management / international business发展．
请各位XDJM指点．先谢过了！

Alice asked Cheshire Cat, "Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to walk from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where," said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you walk," said the Cat.

          --Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

Translation: it depends on your ultimate goal(s)...

ruiyu25

I think the statistics from Forbes are quite misleading.  Look at the years they collect the data: 1998 -2001, the golden era probably once in a century.  How much money you are going to make after 4 years from graduation depends on the location, the industry, the job function and how truely outstanding and aggressive you are.  I feel many of us are too optimistic about the MBA earning potential.  a top MBA is not a guarantee for big chunk of money.  Nowadays IB is still hot industry many many MBA studnets are chasing after, but how many of them have prepared to work 100 hours a week without a social life, without spending time with family and friends and even without time spending all those money?  We should definitely carefully think about our ultimate goal and what do we really want.

suncola

Actually I think 100k is kinda easy to pay back if people earn a US pay, e.g. 50-60k per year. But the salary can't fulfill the expectation of many MBAs.

robertchu

suncola MM: I think what hhxx1 MM mentioned is already in USD.  100K USD annual salary before MBA.

dajiqi

说到底, 这是一个人生目的的问题. 一个在美国读书N年现在找到工作的GG告诉我, 一个好的工作比什么都重要, 年头够了并且凭自己的实力作上去, 工资奖金丝毫不比MBA毕业后少, 况且没有人能保证你毕业后就一定有一个高起点. 另外一种选择就是圆梦, MBA可能是一个梦, 对于许多人来说, 但是从更实际的意义上来说, 过于虚无. 看你的选择了. 如果念MBA是你想得到更高的物质生活的方法, 那么念与不念书, 区别不大. 100K和130K在美国又有什么区别呢? 如果MBA是你的梦想, 不实现就极为不爽的话, 就念.

hhxx1

dianarose GG: "I think a proper way for clarifying the seemingly complex dilemma is just to go through the whole application procedure or at least the essay composing step, even though you are not gonna devote yourself into the admission process. Thus it might be easier for you to find out your long-term aspiration and the way you approach it -- the storylines that can probably solve your dilemma."

Thank you for the valuable advice!  I appreciate it!

The Forbes number is certainly encouraging.  Although ruiyu25 JJ is right to point out that "a top MBA is not a guarantee for big chunk of money",  knowing that earning a top MBA can provide you much higher upward potential is still some consolation.

I think I really should think more thoroughly through it.  In additioin, I've ordered " Business School Confidential " and "How to get into the top MBA programs".  Hopefully more reading can help me better understand the process and provoke more thinking.

I would also appreciate any inputs anybody can give!  Thanks in advance!

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-7-9 13:42:10编辑过]

robertchu

ruiyu25: dianarose's table is from Forbes, and was originally published on 2003.10.13
  http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/1013/078.html

The survey target is MBA class of 1998-- "a class that worked through the boom and bust since graduation." And the salary number is from 2002 -- which actually was at the bottom of the soft labor market.  So, I think the nubmers might not be asmisleading as you suggested.  Of course you are very right to point out that "a top MBA is not a guarantee for big chunk of money".

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-7-9 13:56:32编辑过]

robertchu

以下是引用dajiqi在2004-7-9 11:36:00的发言：
说到底, 这是一个人生目的的问题. 一个在美国读书N年现在找到工作的GG告诉我, 一个好的工作比什么都重要, 年头够了并且凭自己的实力作上去, 工资奖金丝毫不比MBA毕业后少, 况且没有人能保证你毕业后就一定有一个高起点. 另外一种选择就是圆梦, MBA可能是一个梦, 对于许多人来说, 但是从更实际的意义上来说, 过于虚无. 看你的选择了. 如果念MBA是你想得到更高的物质生活的方法, 那么念与不念书, 区别不大. 100K和130K在美国又有什么区别呢? 如果MBA是你的梦想, 不实现就极为不爽的话, 就念.

Well, your friend is certainly right: 书读多了自然应该去工作．

＂年头够了并且凭自己的实力作上去, 工资奖金丝毫不比MBA毕业后少．＂

I'm not so sure of this.  What's the major and LoB of your friend?  As I understand, in US, for most jobs there are always a preset upper limit of compensation.  Say, for software developer, probably 110 - 120K is the most one can expect (not counting stock options -- since FASB is most likely going to require expensing stock option soon, the era of stock option rich probably is already behind us).  Unless one is prompted to a managerial position, the upward potential of compensation for a certain job is more or less given.

"况且没有人能保证你毕业后就一定有一个高起点"

I guess MBA from the top 3 or 5 programs hopefully can offer more or less a higher start point.  Otherwise why so many bright folks compete so intensively to get into one of these programs?

"MBA可能是一个梦, 对于许多人来说, 但是从更实际的意义上来说, 过于虚无"

Sure.  For some folks, especially those with little WE (no offense here), MBA is more like a 梦．But for folks who have worked a good 4 or 5 or even more years, I guess the decision to pursue a MBA, especially a top MBA, is probably much more than merely to 圆梦．

"如果念MBA是你想得到更高的物质生活的方法"

Sure, money is always a consideration.  But I guess most folks who pursue top MBA programs probably have higher inspirations than mere material satisfaction.  What's at issue here is not to pursue material satisfaction through MBA, but whether the gains from a top MBA program (including monetary gains, but much more than only the monetary gains) worth the huge investment (direct cost such as tuition and boarding, plus the opportunity cost of lost salary and WE).

"100K和130K在美国又有什么区别呢? "

As said, it's not only about money.  It's about whether the cost worth it.  But even in terms of money, one should not compare absolute snapshot numbers but compare the long term potentials.

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-7-10 13:50:28编辑过]

robertchu

以下是引用robertchu在2004-7-9 13:54:00的发言：
ruiyu25: dianarose's table is from Forbes, and was originally published on 2003.10.13
  http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/1013/078.html

The survey target is MBA class of 1998-- "a class that worked through the boom and bust since graduation." And the salary number is from 2002 -- which actually was at the bottom of the soft labor market.  So, I think the nubmers might not be asmisleading as you suggested.  Of course you are very right to point out that "a top MBA is not a guarantee for big chunk of money".

Forgot to mention, there is indeed a big problem with the survey data.  According to the description, the survey is voluntary, and the response rate per school is only guaranteed to be above 15%.  So, it could be the case that those graduates who were not making good money or who didn't care about money didn't bother to reply.  In light of this, in the worst case scenario, the number probably can only reflect the top 15% earners among these graduates.  If so, the number probably is not as indicative as it seems.

robertchu

hhxx1 MM, some additional thoughts to share with you.

The true cost of attending top FT program:

- The lost salary:  it's true that in your case, 2 years of lost pre-tax salary is $200,000.  But I believe you should factor in the tax and consider the after-tax amount, since it more accurately reflect the true loss.  Assuming your are in CA, if you are single, then your effective combined federal & state tax rate will be about 30%; if you are married, the effective combined rate will be about 24%.  So, the after-tax salary loss will be $140,000 and 152,000 respectively for two years.

- The lost WE:  True, you will lost 2 years WE at your current position.  But you have to consider whether these two years of WE is crucial to your long term career development or not.  If you have already been doing what you are current doing for a while (from your 6 figures pay I assume this must the case), then two extra years of WE doing the same thing probably won't add too much value to your future career development.  On the other hand, as dianarose has pointed out, 2 years of FT can bring you “intensive academic life, real campus community, full career-development support”, and most importantly, networking opportunities with future business leaders.  In this regard, perhaps you even don't need to consider the lost WE as part of the total opportunity cost.

- Living expense:  since you are already in US, no matter whether you go FT or PT, the living expense will always incur.  So, I don’t think it’s necessary to count the 2 years living expense as extra cost of attending FT.  Only tuition need to be considered.  The tuition for most expensive private school is about $70,000 for two years.

- Total investment for a 2 year FT at top schools, including both opportunity cost and tuition: $210,000 to $222,000.  This is smaller than the $300,000 number originally calculated in earlier postings.  

Does it worth it?  

Admittedly $210,000 is still no small amount.  But, since you mentioned Haas, I assume you also live in the bay area.  Considering this: so many people here have put in huge amount of money, $500K, $600K, $700K or even more to buy not-so-luxury houses, some of them even strength them dangerously thin with ARM.  Why?  Many will tell you that they buy the house as an investment – betting the house value will appreciate.  But any financially-savvy people can attest that this is no sure bet.  Quite the contrary, the bay area housing market might be right at the peak of a bubble.  If you consider the $210,000 also as a kind of investment, investment on your future, I would say probably the long term ROI will most likely be better than those investment on housing, because most likely you will be able to benefit from the investment in a top MBA program in the rest of your 20 – 30 years of career.

Furthermore, since you mentioned that you work in the software industry, you must have witnessed the brutal downturn in the past few years.  Sure, the industry is slowly recovering, but, some long term structural changes that have been kicked off in the past few years, such as the off-sourcing and off-shoring of development to low cost locations such as India, China, east European countries, the bringing-down-to-earth of the once-high-flying industry, as evident in the recent Oracle vs. DoJ trial, probably will not necessarily disappear with the fragile recovery.  Yes, you are making good money now.  But can you, or for that matter anybody in the industry, say for sure that you, or whoever in the industry, will still be able to make such good money 3 or 5 years from now?  Are you sure that your job will not go to India?

So, probably the answer to this question is going to be a Yes.

How long can you recoup the investment?  

I agree with ruiyu25 etc. that the Forbes post-MBA earning list is likely to be skewed towards the high-ends.  So, probably you won’t be able to make as much money as listed after graduate.  Considering your current high pay, it’s even possible that you start salary might be lower than what you currently earn.  But, I believe dianarose has made an excellent point.  You should not compare the mid-to-high pay in one occupation with the start pay of another.  True, the post-top-MBA salary growth rate may not be as steep as the Forbes list suggests, but since the upward potential of post-MBA-pay is much bigger than your current job, in the long run -- maybe not 3 years but 5 or 7 or even more years  – it’s reasonable to expect that one will be able to recoup the investment.  I’m sure that there might be exceptions, and there will always be occasional disappointments, but I believe the odds of being able to recoup the investment is reasonably big.  Otherwise, if such investment is likely to be a losing proposition, why so many smart young men and women work so hard to get in?

FT or PT?  

This is the hardest question.  And I don’t have all the answers.  Since Haas is also a pretty good school, a Haas PT in the end may not be a bad choice.  There have been some excellent postings comparing FT with PT already.  Just some additional points to add: if you go PT, not only it will take longer to finish (3 years or more versus 2 years of FT), but most likely, in these three years, more or less you will have to put your day job on the back burner – as many of us who prepared GMAT part time can tell.  So, it’s unlikely that you will perform equally well in your day job during the 3 years as in the past.  At the same time, since you are only attending the MBA part time, most likely you will also not able to gain as much from the PT program as you would from a FT program.  Moreover, attending PT for three years will no doubt add lots of stress to your personal life, to your health, and to your family (if you have family).  So, although on the face you are both making money and getting a MBA diploma, but look below the surface you may find fatigue and stress everywhere, both in professional life and in personal life.  All these don’t bode well for a healthy jump-start of the post MBA career.  Sure, slowly PT graduates may also take off in their career, but considering the early-to-mid 30 something years are crucial to one's life long career success, the slowing start of post-PT actually incurs a considerable opportunity cost.  That’s probably why most of the top programs don’t offer PT.

Just some incomplete thoughts.  And I’d appreciate it if you or any other XDJM can add more insights to this very helpful discussion.  Thanks!

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-7-11 12:28:32编辑过]