对with结构的小总结，望NN及版主拍砖

superbat28

LZ 今天在08版PREP语法笔记里看到这样一句话，我觉得支持了你说的独立主格的逻辑主语不需要和主句主语相一致的观点：
Absolute phrases do not directly connect to or modify any specific word in the rest of the sentence; instead, they modify the entire sentence, adding information.

-- by 会员 sutchie (2011/8/26 15:35:23)

嗯，这句话应该是出自manhattan，好像有点印象~嘿

huisang

LZ~~~这问题已经让我纠结好长时间了~~~看袅你的帖子~下面是我的一些看法~
这是我按照简单和复合的with结构总结的观点：
（1）    简单的with+ noun.：做Noun. Modifier，做Verb Modifier，都不需要考虑逻辑主语问题。
（2）    复合的with结构：做Noun. Modifier，此时一般不用逗号与修饰的名词分开（因为易产生做独立主格的歧义）；做独立主格结构，此时必须用逗号与主句隔开，修饰前句，不需要考虑逻辑主语问题。

另外我之前一直在疑惑，Manhattan的Verb Modifier里，有几类是需要考虑逻辑主语的，其中有一类是preposition+动名词，with是介词，所以我想如果碰到这样的情况，是不是就要考虑逻辑主语了呢，然后我就去正确的句子里查（prep新旧+OG+GWD），发现没有查到这样的用法的正确的句子(倒是查到了好几个without+-ing的，囧……)，于是我就觉得，至少idiomatic的用法木有这样的，所以复合的with一般是没有verb modifier这个用法的。言而总之，我觉得with无论怎么用都是不需要考虑逻辑主语的。

欢迎拍砖~~~这问题太闹心了！！！hold不住鸟……

superbat28

LZ~~~这问题已经让我纠结好长时间了~~~看袅你的帖子~下面是我的一些看法~
这是我按照简单和复合的with结构总结的观点：
（1）    简单的with+ noun.：做Noun. Modifier，做Verb Modifier，都不需要考虑逻辑主语问题。
（2）    复合的with结构：做Noun. Modifier，此时一般不用逗号与修饰的名词分开（因为易产生做独立主格的歧义）；做独立主格结构，此时必须用逗号与主句隔开，修饰前句，不需要考虑逻辑主语问题。

另外我之前一直在疑惑，Manhattan的Verb Modifier里，有几类是需要考虑逻辑主语的，其中有一类是preposition+动名词，with是介词，所以我想如果碰到这样的情况，是不是就要考虑逻辑主语了呢，然后我就去正确的句子里查（prep新旧+OG+GWD），发现没有查到这样的用法的正确的句子(倒是查到了好几个without+-ing的，囧……)，于是我就觉得，至少idiomatic的用法木有这样的，所以复合的with一般是没有verb modifier这个用法的。言而总之，我觉得with无论怎么用都是不需要考虑逻辑主语的。

欢迎拍砖~~~这问题太闹心了！！！hold不住鸟……

-- by 会员 huisang (2011/8/26 19:33:40)

吼吼~你的问题错在with的复合结构，和preposition+动名词是完全不同的啊~
with的复合结构是with. + n.+ V-ing/V-ed/介宾短语/adj.等，它已经给了自己一个名词了啊~就不要逻辑主语了~

我现在对with的独立主格感觉是这样的：with结构和主句有紧密的逻辑关系，但是它又没有语法上的关系。意思如下：
The company shows its improved sales figure, which increased 2% last month.  
这里句尾一定要是which，因为它在指代figure，你要变成with独立主格了的话，那就是状语了，伴随主句了，就没意义了。
你不可能说"with the profits increased 2% last month, the company showed its imroved sales figure吧？~相当awkward。。
但是可以说这样的话："With the profits increased 2% last month, the company recovered from the recession."

所以with独立主格结构，没有逻辑主语。它是和主句有紧密逻辑关系，但是语法上又没有关系。。我是这么觉得的哈~

hxlgoodboy

没看完，太多了。。。但是没看到你提到的with做为独立主格的作用
with做独立主格后接：n+doing/done/to do;n+pron+adj+n.;n+介宾短语；独立主格在句子中可是作成分的哦

huisang

嗯~LZ对独立主格的理解挺有道理~~~
The state religion of ancient China, which came into existence at least as far back as the Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to A.D. 220) and perhaps as early as the Western Zhou Dynasty (1050 B.C. to 771 B.C.), allowed only emperors performing the ritual worship of heaven, perceiving them as special links between the earthly and celestial realms.
A.    only emperors performing the ritual worship of heaven, perceiving them as  
B.    only emperors to perform the ritual worship of heaven, with the perception of them being
C.    the ritual worship of heaven to be performed only by emperors, who were perceived as
D.    the ritual worship of heaven, performed by emperors only, with the perception of them as
E.    the ritual worship of heaven as performed by emperors only, who were perceived to be
看完LZ上面解释，我觉得这个题B选项是不是就是把原该是定从的成分，换成了独立主格，导致句意上比较awkward呢？

另外~确实应该是with没有prep+动名词这个verb modifier的用法，不是复合with没有这个用法……谢谢LZ纠错啦！~这个问题终于不那么晕了~~~
LZ语法很赞啊！~~~看好你！~~~

huisang

btw~我觉得独立主格和主句还是有语法上的关系哈……做状语嘛~只是基本语法上受主句的限制小，比较灵活~~~

superbat28

嗯~LZ对独立主格的理解挺有道理~~~
The state religion of ancient China, which came into existence at least as far back as the Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to A.D. 220) and perhaps as early as the Western Zhou Dynasty (1050 B.C. to 771 B.C.), allowed only emperors performing the ritual worship of heaven, perceiving them as special links between the earthly and celestial realms.
A.    only emperors performing the ritual worship of heaven, perceiving them as  
B.    only emperors to perform the ritual worship of heaven, with the perception of them being
C.    the ritual worship of heaven to be performed only by emperors, who were perceived as
D.    the ritual worship of heaven, performed by emperors only, with the perception of them as
E.    the ritual worship of heaven as performed by emperors only, who were perceived to be
看完LZ上面解释，我觉得这个题B选项是不是就是把原该是定从的成分，换成了独立主格，导致句意上比较awkward呢？

另外~确实应该是with没有prep+动名词这个verb modifier的用法，不是复合with没有这个用法……谢谢LZ纠错啦！~这个问题终于不那么晕了~~~
LZ语法很赞啊！~~~看好你！~~~

-- by 会员 huisang (2011/8/26 22:25:58)

这道题GWD的吧~哈。。我昨天好像刚做到。。。嗯，这道题我昨天还跟人讨论来着。好多人都说“句意为先”，我也同意。这里就是你要弄明白“什么被perceived as special links between the earthly and celestial realms”
如果能明白，这个被perceive的应该是emperor的话，那很明显你就知道应该是句尾“定语从句”，而不是“with独立主格”啦~因为后者是修饰前面整句话的啊~

嗯。。你说with独立主格应该和主语有联系。。我赞同。。但我就是不大同意版主说过的“with结构的逻辑主语一定要是主句主语”这句话，然后才做的这个总结   T T

不要表扬偶，我是被一战死虐的孩子。。吸取了教训才开始好好总结语法的T T

superbat28

没看完，太多了。。。但是没看到你提到的with做为独立主格的作用
with做独立主格后接：n+doing/done/to do;n+pron+adj+n.;n+介宾短语；独立主格在句子中可是作成分的哦

-- by 会员 hxlgoodboy (2011/8/26 21:57:53)

啊啊~我总结了……只是在最后面>,<
因为那也是我的疑问点，嘿嘿

huisang

嗯……很多童鞋都说实战句意逻辑的掌握要求比较高~~~所以现在我做语法都尽量看懂句子意思了~~不图快了T T
LZ加油！！！二战雄起！！！

sanlingjie

这个with结构真是折磨人，我到现在也不清楚什么是独立主格结构，with不靠谱。
For the last five years the Dutch economy has grown faster than Britain, France, or Germany, with the unemployment rate having remained well below that of the other three countries. （E）

A.    Britain, France, or Germany, with the unemployment rate having remained
B.    have those of Britain, France, or Germany, and the unemployment rate remaining
C.    have Britain, France, and Germany, and the unemployment rate has remained
D.    the economy of Britain, France, and Germany, with the unemployment rate that has remained
E.    the economies of Britain, France, and Germany, and the unemployment rate has remained
这道题D的with结构错在用了定语从句？是不是with的符合结构是没有这种形式的？只能是with+名词+动词ing/动词过去分词/介宾短语/形容词？