质疑gwd-30-29答案

dori0214

我还是想问一下nn

对于that在这里的取舍问题

zhaoyak7

偶不是NN，一起探讨吧。

that引导宾语从句不能省，尤其是在第一个分句。至于第二个分句，九成情况不能省，但如果非常地understood，即一切成份并列和一致，偶也见过省略的情况。

再一个就是关键要按逻辑意思，偶觉得这是G考出题的倾向。楼主给的这两个例子很好，可以体会体会，OG也有解释。偶觉得现在越来越难的一点就是很多句子从语法结构上看也许更完美，但逻辑意思或句子结构却不对了，很多选项看着不爽，但是却没有毛病。上面那两句加了that就属于这种情况，如果实在记不住，偶到觉得可以记住：如果前面有个宾语从句的分句，后面有but，再用that的话就要十分谨慎，其它选项如果没有明显问题，加that一般为错。汗，偶也是这样记的。

 另外关于讨论的这个题，偶又看了一下，觉得划线内部部分：balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound 这是修饰成份相当于省略的定语从句。即balloon angioplasty （which is）preceded by ultrasound  所以这里用by要比with好点吧。除非很明显的错误搭配，但介词的用法在GMAT中一向不是重点，偶当时也没注意到这个介词问题。

dori0214

以下是引用zhaoyak7在2006-8-7 10:28:00的发言：

再一个就是关键要按逻辑意思，偶觉得这是G考出题的倾向。楼主给的这两个例子很好，可以体会体会，OG也有解释。偶觉得现在越来越难的一点就是很多句子从语法结构上看也许更完美，但逻辑意思或句子结构却不对了，很多选项看着不爽，但是却没有毛病。上面那两句加了that就属于这种情况，如果实在记不住，偶到觉得可以记住：如果前面有个宾语从句的分句，后面有but，再用that的话就要十分谨慎，其它选项如果没有明显问题，加that一般为错。汗，偶也是这样记的。

我也是这么想的，and的话可以作为两个观念的并列，而but的话不能说成两个对立的观念，因而此时that慎用

titatita

以下是引用zhaoyak7在2006-8-7 9:33:00的发言：

Researchers agreed that the study of new treatments for heart attack patients was extremely important but more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than the balloon procedure by itself. 

1. more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than
     
2. more research was needed for determining whether or not balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound is any better for heart attack patients than is

其实主要争论是在A，B上。你理解的句子原意没有错，即：研究者同意对心脏病人的新治疗方法很重要,但是更多的研究是需要的来认定ballonn angioplasty with ultrasound对于心脏病患者来说是或不是比balloon procedure本身更好。但A的表述有问题。

一是在GMAT中引导名词性从句（这里不是宾语从句）都用whether或者what，其它如，that，if 或was or was not都是明显的错误选项，这在OG中应该至少有两三道题，偶现在具体想不起来了。当然 whether后面没有 or not 更简洁了，但这是个effectiveness的问题，选项都是比较出来的嘛。

回复g10中认为whether or not 错误的例子

87. Beyond the immediate cash flow crisis that the museum faces, its survival depends on if it can broaden its membership and leave its cramped quarters for a site where it can store and exhibit its more than 12,000 artifacts.

(A)  if it can broaden its membership and leave

(B)   whether it can broaden its membership and leave

(C)  whether or not it has the capability to broaden its membership and can leave

(D)  its ability for broadening its membership
                                    and leaving

(E)   the ability for it to broaden its membership
                                    and leave

Choice A is faulty because it uses the unidiomatic construction depends on if; whether is required to connect depends on with the clause beginning it can.... Choice C uses whether or not where only whether is needed, includes the awkward and wordy construction has the capability to, and unnecessarily repeats the idea of capability with can. Choices D and E use unidiomatic constructions where the phrase its ability to broaden is required. Choice B--idiomatic, concise, and correct--is best.

如果是effectvieness的错误,og中是不会正式提出的,你可以检验一下.如果正是提出,就式correctiveness的错误了.因为GMAT是商务英语要求简洁.

二是从句和时态问题，偶记得名词性的谓语动词都是whether.....is，没有见到whether...后面跟过去时的，这个OG中也有例子。而且从另外一个方面考虑，如果你认为A对，那就认为A是宾语从句了，就算A是宾语从句，那么determine that 后面也要跟动词原形，至少是一般现在时，determine that +过去时（was）是不对的。

回复:1)在语法中,并没有规定说whether后面必须用现在时态is,如果有,请给我指出语法出处,因为我实在没这个印象.相反:下面是langman例句用过去时态:Maurice asked me whether I needed any help.

,关键是,句子前后时态要统一.A中统一用过去时态,B中more research was needed for determing whetheror not balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound is any better for heart attack patients than is....

在同一句话中没有明显时间状语使其合理的情况下,过去时态＆现在时态放在一起是错误的.你可以查一下XDF 石林语法笔记

determine that后面不一定用动词原形,longman上的例句就可以证明了啊Experts have determined that the signature was forged.

三是B更对称，than后面有助动词is 补出。助动词补出的原则是，如果没有补错的话，补出就比没有补要好。这里补出is 后，和前面的is 正好对称，后面by itself是单数，补出是正确的，这一点B优于A。

回复:主动词尽量补出,但若有其他绝对错误,选不补出的选项也是正确的.

to be discussed

补充一点:need to do比need for doing好.longman字典查need你会发现没有need for搭配,而且石林语法中说动词+to do优于动词+for doing

titatita

以下是引用zhaoyak7在2006-8-7 10:28:00的发言：

 另外关于讨论的这个题，偶又看了一下，觉得划线内部部分：balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound 这是修饰成份相当于省略的定语从句。即balloon angioplasty （which is）preceded by ultrasound  所以这里用by要比with好点吧。除非很明显的错误搭配，但介词的用法在GMAT中一向不是重点，偶当时也没注意到这个介词问题。

石林语法说GMAT中,介词永远不是考试重点,也就是GMAT不会让你区分哪个介词用法好,除了某些固定搭配,如regard as等.

我查了longman:并没有固定搭配问题.

所以只要说得通,with或by不是此题解题的关键问题.

precede

pre?cede W3 [transitive] formal
1 to happen or exist before something or someone, or to come before something else in a series [? preceding]:
a type of cloud that precedes rain
Lunch will be preceded by a short speech from the chairman.
2 to go somewhere before someone else:
The guard preceded them down the corridor.

zhaoyak7

题外话：偶也是听的石林语法，大多数没有问题。但现在来看，石林语法中很多规则是很绝对的，只是限于语法层面。但偶越来越觉得有一个趋势：很多句子从语法结构上看也许更完美，但逻辑意思或句子结构却不对了，很多选项看着不爽，但是却没有毛病。如果单纯追求语法的完美，可能效果不一定好。

再来看此题，偶觉得最大的问题还是名词性从句的引导问题，偶一看到was or was not变给去除了。你说og10中认为whether or not 错误的例子，那偶看到，OG11中认为 or not 是个可以接受的用法。OG11-63（黄皮书）考的就是whether和if 的区别（偶查了题号对照，这个题OG10中没有），OG的解释中有一句，偶打出来吧“When only two alternatives are possible， to continue to visit or not to continue to visit， whehter（or whether or not） is properly used rather than if”。偶认为OG11是新出的，考试机构对这些东东的认识也是在发展变化的。当然，没有or not比有要简洁，比如OG11-28中，都用whetherB比C优。
                                    

关于时态问题：在一个句子中前后用的时态不一样的比比皆是，偶觉得主要还是看逻辑意思，到底谁发生在谁之前还是谁之后。关于名词性从句的时态问题，偶赞同你的说法，不一定全都是is，这是偶的语法不扎实。还是说上面的OG11-63，它用的是现在完成时，但OG解释中提到一点“The verb following after should be the pesent perfect have been trimmed to reflect that the trimming must occur before the tourists arrive. ”也就是说，牛角在游人们到来之前就修饰好了。再看本题：

Researchers agreed that the study of new treatments for heart attack patients was extremely important but more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than the balloon procedure by itself. 

more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than  
1. more research was needed for determining whether or not balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound is any better for heart attack patients than is

whether后面的一串东东明显地还没有发生，需要more research 去验证，这应该用一般现在时，将来时也可以接受，但不能用过去时，用过去时表明验证已经发生，谁better应该是见分晓了。

所以偶觉得就本题而言，名词性从句的引导词和时态问题属于EFFECTIVENESS的范畴。

IN　ALL，偶还是觉得逻辑关系的判断（包括时态的逻辑关系）最重要。

关于时态问题：在一个句子中前后用的时态不一样的比比皆是，偶觉得主要还是看逻辑意思，到底谁发生在谁之前还是谁之后。关于名词性从句的时态问题，偶赞同你的说法，不一定全都是is，这是偶的语法不扎实。还是说上面的OG11-63，它用的是现在完成时，但OG解释中提到一点“The verb following after should be the pesent perfect have been trimmed to reflect that the trimming must occur before the tourists arrive. ”也就是说，牛角在游人们到来之前就修饰好了。再看本题：

Researchers agreed that the study of new treatments for heart attack patients was extremely important but more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than the balloon procedure by itself. 

more research was needed to determine that balloon angioplasty preceded with ultrasound was or was not any better for heart attack patients than  
1. more research was needed for determining whether or not balloon angioplasty preceded by ultrasound is any better for heart attack patients than is

whether后面的一串东东明显地还没有发生，需要more research 去验证，这应该用一般现在时，将来时也可以接受，但不能用过去时，用过去时表明验证已经发生，谁better应该是见分晓了。

所以偶觉得就本题而言，名词性从句的引导词和时态问题属于EFFECTIVENESS的范畴。

IN　ALL，偶还是觉得逻辑关系的判断（包括时态的逻辑关系）最重要。

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-8-7 13:23:54编辑过]

zhaoyak7

真怪，编辑了两次，后面redundant的部分就是删不掉。

beyond33

Ding

Winbolin

答案在這裡： http://forum.chasedream.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=23&id=170795&star=4#1888507

aborigin

呵呵，谢谢楼上的，多对了一题