unbelievable!

10312005

Hi, china8, actually, I do not care about the result of my application to Queen too much, because I already got several offers from the U.S.schools. Instead, Ben, as the Assistant Director, gave such inappropriate remarks(at least I think so) bothering me a little.

As you concern my English skills, I admit my English skills are not quite excellent, compared with native speakers. Nevertheless, as the landing immigrant, I have been Canada over 2 years, and now I am an engineer working in the pure English environment every day, reading, listening, speaking, writing even thinking. Do you think there is a stupid boss who wastes his money and hires a guy who barely communicates with his co-workers?

Once again, please read his letter again, you will smell a little bit nationality discrimination if you stand in a fair position, just as most CDers do in this forum. If you still say " no", I am sorry.

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-3-27 11:56:39编辑过]

eeyupyup

以下是引用10312005在2006-3-27 9:37:00的发言：

Musicsky, thank you for your concern, the following subject is the exact word of e-mails from Ben and me, of course, except my name and my e-mail address.

From: Ben Whitney <BWhitney@business.queensu.ca>

>CC: Ruth Sherboneau <RSherboneau@business.queensu.ca>
>Subject: Re: Fw: confused
>Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:06:08 -0500
>
>Hi XXX,
>
>Thank you for your e-mail.
>
>First of all, the letter you received that was signed by our Director (Ms.
>Shannon Goodspeed) is a standard letter that is generated and sent to
>prospective applicants whenever someone who fits our typical applicant
>profile performs well (i.e. in excess of 600) on the GMAT.  The fact that
>you received this letter on the same day you received the second letter
>rejecting your candidacy for our program is, however, regrettable;
>clearly, we did a rather poor job of cross-referencing in this instance.
>
>As for your intimation that all Chinese applicants are unilaterally
>rejected after being interviewed by me, I must admit I find that
>suggestion rather disturbing.  What you may not realize is that Queen's -
>as well as most other MBA programs in the Western hemisphere - have
>witnessed a substantial drop in the number of applications from Chinese
>candidates, due in large part to the proliferation of rapidly-improving
>MBA programs in China.  Consequently, we will then see a reduction in the
>number of Chinese students in the Queen's MBA program.
>
>Secondly, MBA recruiters worldwide have made it abundantly clear to
>business school administrators that they value strong communication skills
>above all else in MBA graduates.  Given the inherent challenges of
>learning English for Chinese-born citizens to the point where they can
>genuinely participate at the same level as a native English speaker in our
>program, it should then not be terribly surprising to learn that the
>number of students in the Queen's MBA program who possess Chinese
>citizenship has declined.
>
>I trust this addresses your concerns.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ben Whitney
>Assistant Director
>MBA for Science & Technology
>613.533.3166 (Phone)
>613.533.6281 (Fax)
>

The First Reason. There is substantial increase for other western schools, (Go check out BW forum, substantial increase from Asia, mainly from India and China) and there is a substantial drop for yours. Do i need to tell Ben what the real reason is? LOL

The Second Reason. The school is just narrow minded. If they think communication is the only thing taht matters for a business school, they have overseen so many other advantages that Suncola has mentioned previously. and from teh word "Inherently", i smell obvious sterotype. I just cant believe a prestigious school would come out this kind of crap.

china8

Hi, eeyupyup

For First Reason:

Here is the Application Trends Survey 2005 from GMAC (Graduate Management Admission Council). The key findings of the survey include –

• Although applications for full-time programs are slightly down compared to last year, the downturn is less steep than it was in 2004.

• Declines in international applications appear to have stabilized this year with marked improvements for full-time programs.

Link: http://www.gmac.com/NR/rdonlyres/06F7E78B-8E35-4AFA-81A2-77ACABFA4A4E/0/AppTrendsExecSum05.pdf

BTW, you can ask Queen’s for their data source.

For Second Reason:

Also, from GMAC (Graduate Management Admission Council)

Selection of New MBA Hires

The following factors, on average, are rated as very important attributes by employers.

1. Strong communication/interpersonal skills

2. Proven ability to perform

3. Cultural fit with company

4. Evidence of adaptability

5. Quantitative knowledge/technical skills acquired in MBA program

6. Management knowledge/skills acquired through MBA program

7. History of increased job responsibility

8. Prior work experience related to industry, job, or company

9. Reputation of MBA school

10. History of leading teams

11. MBA academic success factors

Link: http://www.gmac.com/NR/rdonlyres/6D56EB82-7E8F-4DE7-8F60-2AC25CB105DD/0/EmployerAssessmentofMBAStudentsSkills.pdf

BTW, this question might be offensive:
Do you think we go to MBA program to improve our English or to learn Management Skills? And can you improve your English communication skills in a short of time when you are in a full time MBA program?

Regards

China8

p200002

看了楼主给学校的EMAIL,我的感觉就是锯得应该.我下面的话有点不客气,扔砖头的大胆过来.

第一个理由,你的EMAIL太没礼貌,TOO RUDE.就凭这点就应该锯了.

第二个理由,你的逻辑思维能力实在成问题,包括楼上某些热血青年的.人家说得很清楚,并且恭维了一番中国的MBA PROGAM来解释为什么中国申请人数下降,你们居然理解成反面的意思.麻烦你冷静下来后再去读EEYUPYUP黄字HIGHLIGHT的第一段话.说你逻辑思维是客气,不客气可以说你英语没学好.

第三个理由,你的COMMUNICATION就是不行.说什么知道被面试的所有中国人都被锯了,这种攻击性的言论明显表明你的WRITING有很大问题.

第四个理由,你说自己COMMUNICATION好,用的推理有点类似GMAT的逻辑改错题.我看到多少中国来的移民做程序员,完全英语环境,有几个COMMUNICATION SKILL好的?

还举其它理由吗?实在不想浪费时间了.我觉得你的EMAIL与你对他EMAIL的理解实在让我脸红.

话说回来,QUEENS也真是,回给冠冕堂皇的标准锯信得了,还说那么多干吗.

peacefulmind

信的头两段无甚特别, 虽然第二段是有点莫名其妙. 第三段不妥, 特别是提到用国籍来衡量申请人的沟通能力(虽然这可能是一个客观事实...).

既然QUEEN'S的同胞会去交涉, 大家就稍安勿躁. 更无需在此伤了自家人的和气.

gonghao

通篇仔仔细细德看了3遍，我得承认，我之前帖子犯得错误，从字面上好像没有什么discrimination的语气。

1.这哥们儿就是觉得是中国迅速发展的MBA教育使得去西半球寻求mba教育的中国申请者变少了，所以你会发现在QUEEN的mba里中国学生也在减少。言下之意，queen的MBA里中国人的减少不是他“面一个拒一个的错”，而是中国高速发展的MBA教育，不碍他什么事。

2.在他看来或许和其他的学校的MBA教育一样，QUEEN把交流的能力放在所有考虑因素的首位，言下之意，您的英文得绝对得好，能达到使用英文有如说中文这种native speaker得程度。但是在这哥们儿看来，要达到这样的程度是巨大的挑战而这样的挑战被赋予了Chinese-born citizens ，即这是很难完成的任务，很难达到以fit他们把交流能力列在首位考虑的录取原则，所以发现在QUEEN的中国学生数量的下降也就不足为奇了。即他要说明QUEEN的中国学生数量的减少的原因之二是英文水平没有达到native speaker的程度，而不是他“面一个拒一个的错”，不碍他什么事。

3.另外第一段里还含沙射影的说lz的Gmat不够高

不过通篇里满眼望去都是中国，的确会引起大家的误解，不过再认真的体味一遍，这Email没有明显的歧视中国申请者的迹象。

但是其中，把中国申请者的语言水平誉为不可能完成的任务（虽然没有直接说）还是非常过分的，难道只有中国人这样吗？那韩国人，日本人，印度人，斯里兰卡人，蒙古人，巴西人扽等等的呢？难道他们都能轻易达到native speaker的水平？如果不是的话，那么语言水平在这里也说不通啊，所以QUEEN在这上面也是有问题的

LZ 认为既然说不通，可否反向的认为他有discrimination呢？？？

不幸的是，不，证据不足～～～

LZ别去queen了，看着就来气，虽然也知道它没啥不对，但是还是来气，NND。。。。。。

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-3-27 13:14:21编辑过]

eeyupyup

Hi, China8,

Check out business week. most of the major north american top business schools are receiving substantial increase of application(20%+) this year. I think this is not a news for most of the MBA applicants anymore. GMAC is the test agent. The number of tests taken does not have a direct relationship with the number of mba applicants. Many mba applicants use thier gmat scores a few year back.

I agree communication is vital in business school. my point is that when the school looks it as the ONLY vital point of the business school experience, it hurts the school and the students at the same time. Too many other things shall be considered. And I really dont like the word "inherent". It is offensive to not only an indiviual but also to a major group of applicants. And I dont think it is appropriate, specially as an education institute.

To answer your question. I dont know how your question is related to the previous discussion. But i think the main reason for going for an mba program is to have a POSSIBILY better platform for our career. and I dont think english communication skill can be significantly improved in a short time for most of the people.

regards,

仙人掌

我怎么觉得这信没什么问题啊，楼主写信问他为什么他面试的中国学生都被拒了，他回信说你这么说欠妥当，并表示中国学生数量下降和中国申请人减少以及语言能力有关。我觉得如果把它看成是一封歧视信的话，那么确实楼主的沟通（先理解才能沟通）能力有问题了。不好意思。

pigpig1106

i disagree with what he said as well.                                                                                                                  

I know Wharton has been turning to recruit Chinese students aggressively these years. Since they think Asia is booming rapidly, especially China.

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-3-27 17:09:13编辑过]

gonghao

以下是引用pigpig1106在2006-3-27 13:14:00的发言：

i disagree with what he said as well. What kind of argument is that!!!!!! I have to say, that's considered discrimination  in my standard.

I know Wharton has been turning to recruit Chinese students aggressively these years. Since they think Asia is gooming rapidly, especially China.

是啊，wharton是以地区发展和全球视角作为其招生原则的一个重要的参考标准

但在QUEEN看来，它把招那些英语说得和当地人一样好的学生作为其招生的第一考虑因素（比较的有问题）