揭秘里昂 EMLYON 2

123321abc

本着要么不揭底，要揭底就揭爽了的原则，又一篇日志诞生。
写完上一篇后，有正在申请的人私信我，希望详细了解一下法国高商，有人留言骂我，说我活该。无论怎么评论，这是别人的权利...
之前，有人留言，说期待看到我继续吐槽新学校的帖子。于是我也决定补个后续，但是，另你失望的地方是，我不吐槽新学校，因为没有槽点，满满的幸福感，但是可以写两个学校对比帖子。
对比前，先插一段题外话，我看了所有关于里昂的帖子，有一篇人气很高，叫“希望我能消除你对EMLYON的一些误解”。里面尽是对里昂的热捧，好多人以为作者是里昂的老师，还挺相信的感觉。针对这篇日志，我也要进行一下反驳。原文链接
http://forum.chasedream.com/foru ... 63&highlight=emlyonhttp://forum.chasedream.com/foru ... 63&highlight=emlyon
1.题目已经暴露端倪。有误解需要消除？什么误解？真的是误解还是事实？为什么其他学校没有类似的误解需要被解释，通篇日志只是说里昂好的地方，可是并没有提具体的误解是什么。
2.正如下面其他人的留言，作者明显散布误导信息，说EMLYON比ESSEC好，仅次于HEC，这会误导多少中国人？这点我都懒得反驳，所有人都应该明白真相。
3.作者本身不是里昂老师，教课，参加员工大会不代表是教师，作者是博士，博士也有资格参加员工大会，因为我们也签了雇佣合同。
4.关于作者说曾经拿到年薪30万美金的香港投行offer，这个已经有至少两个人留言质疑了。我也同样觉得这个不可能。有兴趣可以google Xiong jie(jay) 的linkedin,寻找相关信息。你会发现这个人的简历和文章里作者间接透露的信息完全，是完全吻合！再加上本人在里昂的听闻，推测作者就是 Xiong JIE。论坛名globaljay,Jay也吻合，作者确实去了很多国家，因此称得上global。那么，各位看客看了这个人自己公布的官方简历之后，这种背景的人，如非异常幸运或者家境非凡，能否拿到香港投行offer，能否拿到美国top20金融专业的offer，大家心里都明白，应该是不言而喻不需争论的。另外，投行说酬薪不都是用K为单位的吗？说30W很不行家...
5.作者自己也透底了，国内双非，gmat500左右来里昂的也很多，作者自己说的。里昂实力可见一斑
6.作者自己也说了，什么商会支持，政治斗争，换高层。你们看看，这是一个好的学校应该做的事情吗？听上去跟黑社会差不多了，这种“政局不稳”的学校，能专心为学生的利益着想吗？另外，好多人也留言反驳了，作者把escp全部写成escap，应该不是一次笔误。里昂真的好多老师都这样，连对方基本情况都没弄清楚，比如说名字，就口出狂言，好像对别人的背景都弄得很清楚一样。澄清几个项目的区别。法国高商强在传统的GE项目，颁发法国国家级文凭，回国以及其他主要国家都没有任何问题，几乎可以说是全球承认。但是，一年制的MSC，是校级文凭，校级！法国高教部没有备案没有授权，回国以及去其他国家认证就存在潜在问题了。（我不是说100%不能认证，但是也不是100%可以认证，企业承不承认也不好说，总的来说是存在“潜在”问题，比如说，移民去加拿大，就不被承认，楼主的朋友亲身经历。博士项目，只有HEC的可以认证，其他所有商校，除非和公立大学合办，颁发公立大学文凭，否则一律不被承认！）
好了，这篇日志说完后，新旧学校对比开始，因为新生活才刚开，就对比一些目前了解的方面。针对博士项目。
补一条，关于师资。关心这个帖子的人，肯定初步了解法国教育体制，好学生都去工程师或者高商，学习不好家里也不富裕的才读公立。那么，我们大约，总体上可以说公立大学的毕业生不是法国本土优秀的那批人！但是，里昂好多老师是公立大学的本硕博，我们应该可以理解成，他们年轻的时候，是同龄人中的loser，如今却自以为是的教育“精英商校”的学生，有点儿滑稽。
1. 关于interview这种研究方法。楼主曾经跟emlyon老师表示，对于博士不现实，CEO不会轻易接受博士的访问的。里昂老师，创造机会，没什么不可能，我之前有同学就试着做了，一年不行就两年，两年不行就三年。OMG，博士，不是老师，要毕业的！有年限的。新学校老师，确实不现实，所以，只是说要大概掌握这个研究方法，并不要求你立刻去真的做。如果有一天真的必须做，你告诉我，我帮你安排伦敦金融城里的CEO或者manager进行interview。
2.对某个研究领域不感兴趣。EMLYON，必须感兴趣，我们就是研究这个的，全学校都在做这个。新学校，兴趣是最好的老师，不感兴趣的seminar听听就好，不感兴趣就不做。
3. 楼主去里昂的第二天就开始全天上课，五天后就考试，楼主成绩差。被老大叫去一顿批评和恐吓，你怎么能这么这么差，从来没见过你这样的！新学校，入学三周后正式见导师，导师问，都还适应吗？喜欢这里吗？住在哪了？你就继续适应环境，习惯这里就好，学习的问题，咱11月底开始再讨论。
4. 关于发paper, 里昂老师，努力写努力写，必须发，发了才能找到工作。新学校老师，不着急确定研究方向，慢慢感受，去确定自己的真正兴趣。你就负责想idea, 找数据，写论文，这个过程我帮你提出新的建议，提供帮助。论文写完了给我，发表是我的事，我们会帮你弄好。
其他方面，比如图书馆，学生服务，校园环境等方面不比了，一是之前帖子也几乎写的是这些方面，二是那一个综合牛校和小商校比，有点儿欺负人。根本不是一个层次。

cheesechan

123321abc 发表于 2015-10-19 23:03
首先说EMM是管理学专业，你确定德国对于管理学也要求专业背景吗？这点我确实不懂德国情况，你自己去官网 ...

1. Most, if not all, master program in Germany required a very related background, including management.
This is very different to many other countries. (I do think that is stupid: management education should also be available to a diversified background of student, but that's the reality. Check ESMT which may be the exceptional.)
(If it is not the cases, far less people will be interested in those France business school GE program since the economics in German is clearly better than that in France)
Of course it always still worth a trial as one never know clearly what they mean "related" exactly...

2. the reason why it is called a "European master" is not because it is only recognized in Europe, but because it is a Erasmus Mundus program, which is funded / operated with cooperation of the EU.
Even it is only recognized within Europe, this is not really a big problem. If one plan to go back home directly, no university in EU continental is famous enough to worth the cost; if one plan to stay for a job for at least a few year, company will care the job experience way more than the academic one already.

3. well indeed agree, but I don't think learning corporate finance is much more useful than organization indeed. Corporate finance is a competitive field, and fluent local language is a must.
having a mixture between FR+DE = mostly likely you don't speak France nor Deutsch for working purpose at the end..........

4. I consider the tuition to be very expensive. Consider a normal master in Germany, the tuition fee per semester is just like 0 - 500 EUR, and don't forget that in Germany, private business school is not in a dominate position over public university as that in France.

5. I tend to believe the master on the LMU side is a recoginzed one, since I had never heard of too many types of diploma in Germany (but need check of course, never heard of =/= don't exist). As far as I know, France has the most complicated (completely a mess to me i will ever say) higher education system within Europe. Tons of different kind of public university, grant ecole, and whatever cooperation between 5/6 university to host a program together (and it is not even clear who will issue the diploma), are something that I only see in France but not any other countries in Europe. But even though the master is the same, the companies knows the difference just from the title of it......

To #14, please list your major. I don't think it is a good idea to do business / management in Germany even if you can; that's is not what their culture value (and thus there are no top business in Germany)
You may also consider the Netherlands too indeed.

cheesechan

Germer 发表于 2015-10-16 20:23
博士项目和GE项目招人方式果然很不一样，我只能说，法国的商校不是搞研究的好地方，强项在Ge的实践经验，这 ...

Generally it is a bad idea to do a PhD in a stand alone business school, since in order to conduct good research, a good cooperation between researcher from different discipline is very important. For example, a finance researcher are very likely to cooperate with account and econ professor, but also with math, stat, law, psychology, politics and etc....
that's the reasons why there are world class research in social science university (e.g. LSE), or sci/tech uni (e.g. Caltech), but we seldom see that for a stand alone business school, since business itself is too small for interdisciplinary stuffs.

of course, there are exception like maybe LBS, but well.....they do have really close cooperation with other schools in London  (e.g. LSE, IC, UCL, KCL), so this is not a problem for them.

Blair2020

真的有这么差吗？……  正准备提交申请emylon msc program 呢，虽然已经工作多年 但是也想2万多欧的学费花的值一些，开始纠结了

cheesechan

123321abc 发表于 2015-10-20 23:57
丹麦的话，哥本哈根商学院可以看看是否达到要求，意大利的博科尼大学（bocconi)据说是欧洲投行的target s ...

1. there are some roles in Germany that don't require Deutsch as office language for sure; but not for corporate finance, like IBD I will say. Not likely to be most other core business also.
and that's true that the local language requirement is higher in France than in Germany. Without French in France, one will "die"; Without Deutsch in Germany, one can still "survive".
Indeed, the most simplest method to know how much the language is required there is:
just start job search online as if one is already there, and see how the job ad said. Language requirement is clearly stated.

2. compared to soft business (marketing, management, and indeed also corp fina and etc....), a hard major background in STEM (like math, stat, CS) are way more easier to find a job as an international student.
first, they all speak mathematics as the major language and thus language barrier is way lower, second, look at the policy, e.g. US STEM OPT extension, German Blue card requirement; Third, those roles are most likely non-client facing and thus culutre difference is a small concern.

3. Of course it is difficult to enter 咨询投行.......(put aside those with previous internship / rich dad & mom) things is like that: those in the target school will have a chances and a small portion of them will get into it; if one is not, well...there are lots of other career choice anyway. [of course here I mean the core / interesting position in consulting and banking, but not those pure supporting role (e.g. operation......)]

4. getting an internship is not really a big problem and is just a first step, getting a permanent role is the real issue. it is not only the case for international but also local student, and it Is where the term Generation Praktikum from....

cheesechan

皮四殿 发表于 2015-10-21 21:11
好吧那看来我只能去申德国的私立院校了。WHU限制专业，联系了一下EBS，觉得招生老师吹的有点夸张，真有那 ...

1. EBS ín Germany is of course not a famous school. At least after Mannheim, WHU or equivalent. Various problems recently, and I won't recommend it much too.
but well...........I don't think your background can be afforded to be too picky.

2. SSE MSc Business and Management don't require a bachelor in economics , business, but only social science. and indeed this is not a very strict requirement as they also state explicity that science and engineering student can be considered case by case too (I do know something with a sci/engine background in that program). I guess it still worth a

3. Bocconi? Yes for sure it is a target, but if you are going to Bocconi, why not just consider also HEC and etc directly together? France GE program have internship year even.

4. Indeed what I wanna say is.........if you have solid Deutsch, and can make into one of the top school in the region (e.g. HSG, Mannheim, WHU, some top public like LMU, HU Berlin and etc..., or some decent uni with good location like Goethe, maybe also Frankfrt School of Finance or Mgt; while most if not all of them require a related bachelor), then getting a corporate fina role within DE is still not out of reach.........but given your current profile, I think you should have a plan B and C..........

5. Given that you have an English major, I think it is more practical to aim at a management master than a finance one. Even though a MSF is not really that technical while compred to some others, they are still not a general major as MiM. I guess the MSF and MiM program offered by school in US/UK have a clear example of the requirement of "related" bachelor, and thus art major student fit MiM better than MSF a bit.

6. Given all these, I think it really worth for you to really consider netherlands........at least the local language requirement is lower than France and Germany. one year program, likely to be more flexible on "related" background, (heard to be) better visa policy to international student when compared with UK.....

皮四殿

123321abc 发表于 2015-10-20 23:57
丹麦的话，哥本哈根商学院可以看看是否达到要求，意大利的博科尼大学（bocconi)据说是欧洲投行的target s ...

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皮四殿

cheesechan 发表于 2015-10-20 18:48
1. well........good luck to those with a English major........
I really cannot understand why 英语  ...

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123321abc

皮四殿 发表于 2015-10-20 17:02
非常感谢两位耐心的解答！我再详细介绍下自己的情况。我是211财经院校英语专业，课程有一些商科基本科目 ...

丹麦的话，哥本哈根商学院可以看看是否达到要求，意大利的博科尼大学（bocconi)据说是欧洲投行的target school。
关于cheesechan回复的第三点，我觉得熟练的法语对于法国是必须要求，但是德意志银行每年确实招了很多不会德语的中国人，但是具体做什么不敢确定，不过有一个我认识的人是在wealth management部门。而且，事实上，也有很多法国高商中国学生去德国实习甚至工作了，难道说这些人都会德语，我想不至于吧？但是，确实，想进IBD领域有些不现实。这个具体情况，你看cheesechan怎么回复你吧。
cheesechan回复的第九点，非常认同，我之所以在之前说，中国人应该不愿意学organzation, strategy之类的，就有部分原因是因为语言，文化背景的问题，很难很难进入咨询公司，甚至，我觉得对于数理占优的中国人，可能比进银行还难呢。
最后，就是希望你别被法国高商的marketing能力忽悠了，真的，别抱有太大的幻想，咨询投行这些，别说emlyon了，你看看帖子上，HEC，ESSEC的中国学生有几个最后成功转正了（法国大公司实习相对好找，签正式合同CDI非常难，很多中国学生实习三四年还是实习，这个跟法国的劳工法对员工的过度保护有关）。
P.S.看了cheesechan的回复，和他之前的帖子，我觉得他是个大神，应该懂很多，你多问问他吧，我就是一个被骗的学生，说明我也不是很懂，否则也不会被骗。我只是对emlyon应该更了解一下，比如师资，实习去向，生活，学位等。。

cheesechan

皮四殿 发表于 2015-10-20 17:01
非常感谢两位耐心的解答！我再详细介绍下自己的情况。我是211财经院校英语专业，课程有一些商科基本科目 ...

1. well........good luck to those with a English major........
I really cannot understand why 英语 can be a 专业 alone indeed. It is not English literature / culture nor translation........

2. I guess "60学分以上是商科课程" is not a big problem as 60 ECTS = one year of coursework only; the problem is they have really very strict requirement on the RELATED major.
There are historical background for this: before Bologna reform, there are no such thing called bachelor and master, but only one single 5 year degree (normally ppl spend way more than 5 years).

3. Corporate finance is a very competitive field. Fluent Deutsch is a basic requirement, and for quite some of them native Deutsch is required. Replace French for France.

4. As you have some background in Deutsch already, I think it worth to spend some more time on it in order to make it up to working level. If you want to look for some role that may be available to non-German speaker, I guess that may be (for finance related) some accounting / quantitative related stuffs.

5. well......what's the point for spending one more year in the master? for learning in lectures? for exchange? for internship?

6. I guess you won't stand any chances for a business master in any public university in German, but I guess it may worth to ask how strict they are on for the "related" major to a couple of private business there (e.g. WHU, Frankfurt school of finance, EBS, ESMT). They are more likely to be more flexible and maybe willing to offer per-master program (i.e. more income from tution maybe) to those without related background.

7. Netherlands, have a look into Uni of Amsterdam, and of course also the RMS. For Sweden, consider SSE MSc business and management which do consider not only business school, and then maybe also CBS in Dermark (but seems most master require a social science bachelor)

8. Honestly........is 财务基础 so important for corporate finance? Yes, for sure they are very useful, but it alone is far away from enough - tons of accounting student are very good in that. A good school, and then a related internship(s), and etc.......are the next steps. and still.......most of accounting students ends in accounting related roles like audit or control instead of corporate finance / other finance role like equity research, and thus you are tell the story.

9. "慕尼黑的方向是战略管理毕业只能去咨询公司"..........umum, are you sure consulting company will take you? well.....nothing is impossible for sure, but firstly......state a reason why they should take you instead of some others European students who are generally way more familiar with the culture and the market there?

皮四殿

cheesechan 发表于 2015-10-20 00:16
1. Most, if not all, master program in Germany required a very related background, including manage ...

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皮四殿

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