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[SC总结] 对when +过去分词形式的理解,When compared to horses, Zebras are vicious有两个完全冲突的解释!

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楼主
发表于 2014-10-19 23:26:21 | 只看该作者 回帖奖励 |倒序浏览 |阅读模式
首先关于When+过去分词的用法,在这道题中:
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.
A. the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that
B. mice whose brains grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries whose neurons increase when they
C. mice’s brains that grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries’ neurons that increase when they
D. the brain growth of mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries’ neurons when they
E. brain growth in mice that are placed in a stimulating environment or an increase in neurons in canaries that

选项中的有个区别就是有些是when they are placed,有些是when placed。 然后解释是说when placed(when+过去分词)的形式默认主语就是原来主句的主语,在这里语法结构上就是在说examples of neurogenesis.....include.....when [examples of neurogenesis were] placed. 但是逻辑上是在指mice。

我一开始觉得很不理解,因为这个感觉和一般理解的modifier完全相反了,which, that 一类的都是就近修饰,但是这个却是反过来的(现在想想看这个思考模式不对,which that who whom whose是定语从句 adjectival, 只能修饰名词,after, although, when, because, before, if, since 之类的是状语从句adverbial,位置上会有点自由,但是修饰的还是how the action in the verb was done, 所以两者的情况不能放在一起一概而论。)

另外一个原因觉得困惑的是
2.WHEN COMPARED TO horses,zebras are vicious. 这个例子里为什么用when 就不对呢?Zebras are vicious when compared to horses 这个反过来也可以看到说是when zebras are compared to horses, Zebra are vicious好像没有什么问题。 但是再找了一下资料,发现manhattan上有提到了这样的说法:

If your "conditional sentence" depends on something that occurs at a specific time, then "when" can be used to express the whole conditional idea.

You can't use when if ...

... 1/ something is NOT an event that occurs at a specific point in time.
If you are a woman, the older executives may not speak to you as honestly as they will to men.
("When you are a woman" is nonsense, unless someone has the ability to change back and forth between sexes.)

... 2/ the consequence doesn't occur at the time of the conditional part.
If you smoke cigarettes, you will die of cancer.
"When you smoke cigarettes" doesn't work here, since you won't die whenyou smoke the cigarettes"”you'll die decades later.

If the time relationship is appropriate, though, "when" is more descriptive than "if", because it's more precise.

E.g.,
When you return the goods, you'll receive a refund.
"”> You'll receive your refund at the time when you return the goods"”i.e., not later.

If you return the goods, you'll receive a refund.
"”> This sentence is more vague about the timeline. You might get the refund when you actually return the goods"”but you might get it much later.


所以以前有个帖子对于这个问题的解释是对的,zebra并不是只有在和horse做比较的时候才是vicious。所以用when表示的时间点非常非常确切,所以用在这里不合适。


关于各种省略的情况在这里有很好的总结:http://www.ruiwen.com/en/news/7448.htm

==========================================================
但是!!同样还是when compared to horses, zebras are vicious.的问题!!另一个在GMAT club上的帖子给出了不同的答案:
The first one makes the famous "missing verb" mistake. The GMAT brutally punishes the following construction
[conjunction][participial phrase]

You see, a conjunction (like "when") must be followed by a full bonafide noun + verb clause, NOT simply a participial phrase. See these blog articles:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle-phrases-on-the-gmat/

http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-grammar-rules-the-missing-verb-mistake/

Thus, the construction would have to be "When they are compared to horses, etc.", but that's now awkwardly long and indirect.

通过他给出来的链接里可以看到,原文是在讲
substituting a participial phrase for the full noun + verb requirement of subordinate clause
这种错误,举例是:

although opposing slavery on philosophical ground, Jefferson owned a plantation with several hundred slaves
这个在GMAT里是完全错误的,因为
The subordinate clause, beginning with the conjunction “although”, needs a full noun + verb clause of its own.  Here’s a corrected version of that sentence:
7b) Although Jefferson opposed slavery on philosophical grounds, he owned a plantation with several hundred slaves.
Now, both the subordinate clause and the main clause have their own required noun + verb structure.

这里我想其实是应该这样理解的,因为主句和从句的动作是同时发生的,所以在事态上就应该是一致(就算是Although Jefferson was opposing slavery,也是不行的,因为主句是一般过去式,从句也应该是一般过去时。)其次,这里很明显从句是oppose为动词,没有要用be动词做谓语动词,而要想状语从句省略的话需要从句主语和主句主语一致并且谓语动词要是系动词才行,所以这里不符合省略的要求,所以才会造成了这种错误。

这和状语从句中的省略原则没有什么冲突,只是这里从句谓语动词不是be动词,不符合省略条件,所以一定要补全从句的主语和从句的动词。


我觉得GMAT club里的那个人提供的解释是错误的。不知道我这样的理解正确吗?还希望能有大神补充补充…

顺便关于主从句时态一致的补充:http://www.360doc.com/content/12/0813/00/10502264_229853877.shtml
还有在Manhattan上关于when 和if的进一步补充,when是很明确的表示了”我起码曾经在一个时间上经历过“这种意思,但是if”就算我没经历过我也可以拿来做前提“。
The primary difference between "if" and "when" is that "when" implies that the precipitating event will definitely happen.
"Can" is a separate issue; that's an issue of whether the consequence oraccompanying situation is uncertain.

E.g.,
When I eat white rice, I can easily eat too much, because pure starch isn't filling.
If I eat white rice, I can easily eat too much, because pure starch isn't filling.
These two sentences express the same possibility of overeating. The difference is that the first one ("When I eat white rice") implies that there are definitely occasions on which I eat white rice, while the second one makes no such implication.
I could make the second statement even if I know I'll never eat white rice again.

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沙发
发表于 2016-3-30 15:55:34 | 只看该作者
曼哈顿语法上第九章,compare用法说了 when compared to 都是错的,以及prep08 189(og12-123)你可以参考一下
板凳
发表于 2016-3-30 22:31:01 | 只看该作者
1、even when compared正确的例句:

OG16-116:November is traditionally the strongest month for sales of light trucks,but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers,,accounted for a remarkably large share of total vehicle sales.

2、楼主说的对,when+从句是状语,一般修饰主句或主句动作;它与定语从句不同,不能直接修饰名词。

3、状语从句的省略不一定要求动词是be动词,只要逻辑主语和时态没歧义就能省略。
正确例句:TN23-Q21:Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe  while at the same time introducing(修饰主句主语methods) some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.

4、请问楼主你这个斑马的句子出处是哪里?外国人怎么讨论的这么热烈?我认为句子没有什么语法问题啊。
地板
 楼主| 发表于 2016-4-6 11:10:02 | 只看该作者
为什么时隔一年后才有了回复…………谢谢…………虽然我现在连我问的问题都已经看不懂了……
5#
发表于 2016-4-7 16:38:39 | 只看该作者
医生吃鱼 发表于 2016-3-30 22:31
1、even when compared正确的例句:

OG16-116:November is traditionally the strongest month for sales ...

斑马那个句的问题是meaning。When这个词在汉语里的用法容易让我们疏漏这点。如果说when compared就是指斑马被比较的时候才vicious, 但实际上斑马是always vicious的。而不是一比较就立马变成vicious了。

举个栗子,来自Tursday with Ron modifier and meaning那期是Tommy 讲的。

WRONG: When you look closely at the house, it is on fire.

The sentence means, the house isn't on fire UNLESS you look closely at it.
NO the house is always on fire.

CORRECT: When you look closely at him, the ants run away.

The sentence means looking closely cuases the ants run away.

6#
发表于 2016-4-7 16:48:30 | 只看该作者
三塘木 发表于 2016-4-6 11:10
为什么时隔一年后才有了回复…………谢谢…………虽然我现在连我问的问题都已经看不懂了…… ...

嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿我也觉得GMATclub里面那个人的解释是错误的
7#
发表于 2016-4-11 09:47:19 | 只看该作者
疯狂的狐狸 发表于 2016-4-7 16:38
斑马那个句的问题是meaning。When这个词在汉语里的用法容易让我们疏漏这点。如果说when compared就是指斑 ...

谢谢指教!
貌似我在考试中也碰到过类似的考察when句意的题!
8#
发表于 2017-9-25 20:41:17 | 只看该作者
疯狂的狐狸 发表于 2016-4-7 16:38
斑马那个句的问题是meaning。When这个词在汉语里的用法容易让我们疏漏这点。如果说when compared就是指斑 ...

同意!                我觉得还可以用WHEN 只能加 时间状语从句 ,而不能加条件状语从句来解释
第一句的when 的意思,你看他的时候才 on Fire 显然是不对的
第二句就很明显,只有when you look closely 这个timing 的时候,ants run away

9#
发表于 2019-10-6 16:04:40 | 只看该作者
都是大佬!我终于搞清楚although doing了
10#
发表于 2023-8-5 20:52:19 | 只看该作者
疯狂的狐狸 发表于 2016-4-7 16:38
斑马那个句的问题是meaning。When这个词在汉语里的用法容易让我们疏漏这点。如果说when compared就是指斑 ...

啊啊我也记得ron讲的这个,但是楼上说的OG22里的971,when compared with就是标准答案,感觉gmat这帮人好莫名其妙出尔反尔(bushi
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