关于Ving用法—og12 sc 中21和og25比较，有点迷惑了

babybearmm · 发表于 2012-2-13 16:59:32

同学啊，真心建议你不要翻译成中文去学英文。你翻译成中文，对based on, using的理解有偏差。所以我一直喜欢用英英字典。 比如英语里说：  I base my opinion on many facts. 你翻译成中文，直译：我将我的意见建立在很多事实上。觉得别扭么？反正我是觉得别扭，中文从来没这么说过。但那个英文句子就是很地道的表达。 你选了C，C那个"with"有很大的问题，你翻译成中文听不出来，但是你如果用英文去思考，问题太明显了。"with sth. for a basis" does not make sense. 说到这里，前几天见到版上很多同学讨论那个with，什么with引导的独立主格怎么怎么用......我理解不了很艰深的语法术语，只知道要stick to the LITERAL meaning of "with" ——当然这一点，我是有一次听Ron的讲课受他启发突然悟出来的，然后一下子惊喜地发现，所有有关with的题都可以迎刃而解。 我下面造一个句子（当然这个造句是有某道GMAT原题作为背景的，有同学能看出来哈）—— 我们假设到了夏天，鹿就进入繁殖季节 With summer coming, biologists estimate that the deer population will soon increase. (INCORRECT) 这话严格说来，从逻辑上看，有问题 你提炼主干 with summer coming, biologists estimate ...                 那读者会问：”夏天到来，和你生物学家作预测，有嘛关系？难道说，夏天不到来，生物学家就不做预测，就吃白饭的？“ 这就是我想说的如何从字面上去理解with 这句话这么改，就对 With summer coming, the dear population, based on the estimation of biologists, will soon increase. 当然，这只是一种改法，我就提供一个思路，就说咱的主干逻辑是：夏天到来  与鹿群数量增长  直接相关。所以我们把直接相关的信息放在主干，不直接相关的（生物学家的预测）放在插入。我编的这句话，我用了based on作为noun modifier. 就说这句话的主干如下 With summer coming, the dear population will increase. 这里with是make sense的，因为确实是直接相关的、伴随的 回到原句，咱再来说，假如我们不想改变主干结构(biologists estimate ...)，怎么能让"with..." make sense。比如我编这句话： With thorough investigation, biologists estimate that the deer population will soon increase. 这个with就是make sense。因为你提炼主干 With thorough investigation, biologists estimate .... 你能看出来它的意思，说biologists经过调研，推测什么什么   这个with就make sense 而如果换成"with summer coming"，就不make sense，难道夏天不到，生物学家就不干活？ 

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想请教一个ving以外的话题，原句中有based on“作为基础”的含义，而正确答案E中using...没有把描述作为基础的含义吧？可能就是按他们说的，学者们直接画的，而不是把它们所说的作为一个“基础”。。 所以我觉得E是不对的，因为改变了句意。 我觉得选C。。。请指正<div style="text-align:right;">-- by 会员 翼adobe (2012/2/13 16:24:21)</div> 
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翼adobe · 发表于 2012-2-13 17:38:06

非常感谢baby姐的回答，意思是with sth. for a basis没有这个短语吗？我读的时候也觉得有点别扭，可是不敢肯定是否真的有此短语，又觉得E没有base on的意思，就排了DE直接选了C了。。。 其实还是在心里翻译成中文，成习惯了。。

babybearmm · 发表于 2012-2-13 19:29:11

其实无论从语法还是意思上来说，这题正确选项"using..."都可以说是perfect! 如果你实在非常十分无比喜欢用based on，你可以说 Scholars have painted X based on Y. 这里你就把noun modifier "based on Y" 放在了它修饰的对象X旁边了，正确。 （原话是把"based on Y"作为opening modifier (initial modifier)来修饰主语scholars，这就是错误。） 但是，你这句话又有了新的问题：Scholars have painted X based on Y. 我们的X=a sketchy picture of the activities of an all-female cult that, perhaps as early as the sixth century B.C., worshipped a goddess known in Latin as Bona Dea, “the good goddess.” 看到了么？尽管X中心词就是picture，但X实在太长了，结构太繁杂了，你如果还要用"based on Y"来修饰X，你那个"based on Y"往哪里搁？搁不下了啊<img src="/static/legacy-emoticon/1.gif" emoticon="[em:1]" alt="" /> 这是我为什么说这句话的正确选项perfect的其一。当你把"based on Y"变成"using Y"，放到句首的时候，这个句子结构非常平衡，有种建筑美。 其二，你一直坚持说要有"base on"的意思，但如果我们深入理解这句话，sticking to the LITERAL meaning of "use" and "based on"，你就能发现 "using ..." PRECISELY conveys the intended meaning of this sentence. 引用Ron的话吧： In your OG example, the word (based) now has an -ed ending, not an -ing ending. This is now a noun modifier, and the first noun after the comma is scholars. So it basically says the scholars themselves are "based on accounts of various ancient writers." That's not what we want to say; we want to say the scholars used the accounts of various ancient writers to do something else. So we change to an -ing form (using) so that we can correctly modify the clause: scholars have painted X using accounts of Y. 至于你选的C，"With accounts of various ancient writers used for a basis" 一方面，如OG所说，wordy & awkward. What do you mean by "used for a basis"?  What is "a basis"? The word "basis" alone is non-sense. You should be specific - define the basis by the expression "a basis of sth". 这就是我觉得basis的问题。 另外，是"with"的问题，刚才Ron那段话说得很明白，这里using的表达很精确。 而with是干吗的？表伴随。ok, 那怎么个伴随法？ with表伴随的情况太多了，我随便造个句子： I went shopping with my friend.    这是表伴随 I went shopping with coupons (and got some good deals).    这也是表伴随 这两个句子都是很正确的，没问题。 但是，同样是表伴随，伴随朋友和伴随coupon，是一回事么？你能把朋友揣兜里么？能牵着coupon的小手么？<img src="/static/legacy-emoticon/0.gif" emoticon="[em:0]" alt="" /> 这就是为什么，我以前看到过一个说法，说GMAT里通常认为with开头的结构模糊，GMAT不喜欢。 没错，你能用using来精确地表达你的意思，为啥用模糊表伴随的with? GMAT永远是追求表达的effectiveness。 当然，存在很多with的正确句子，所以那个说法不全对，可你仔细分析，就会发现在那些句子里，with结构对于表意非常的effective. 所以我建议，从正确句子中学习GMAT(也就是scholarly english)的表达，关注逻辑含义，同时对于关键的字词要stick to the literal meaning. 

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非常感谢baby姐的回答，意思是with sth. for a basis没有这个短语吗？我读的时候也觉得有点别扭，可是不敢肯定是否真的有此短语，又觉得E没有base on的意思，就排了DE直接选了C了。。。 其实还是在心里翻译成中文，成习惯了。。<div style="text-align:right;">-- by 会员 翼adobe (2012/2/13 17:38:06)</div> 
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翼adobe · 发表于 2012-2-14 09:11:07

我懂了，非常非常非常感谢baby姐的耐心解答！best wishes~~~<img src="/static/legacy-emoticon/0.gif" emoticon="[em:0]" alt="" /><img src="/static/legacy-emoticon/0.gif" emoticon="[em:0]" alt="" />

有理想没有钱 · 发表于 2012-2-15 11:34:49

mark.................

EmilyYoung90 · 发表于 2012-2-22 15:37:49

mark！！

lovecloris · 发表于 2012-2-23 15:16:37

baby威武，baby开个OG12+Manhattan 小教室吧～～<img src="/static/legacy-emoticon/0.gif" emoticon="[em:0]" alt="" />

babybearmm · 发表于 2012-2-24 15:31:38

刚看到Stacey@Manhattan针对"comma+v-ing"举了个非常好的例子来阐释，分享下 Source: <a href="http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2012/01/28/modifiers-and-meaning-a-gmatprep-sentence-correction-problem-2" target="_blank">http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2012/01/28/modifiers-and-meaning-a-gmatprep-sentence-correction-problem-2</a> As a very general rule, think of a "comma -ing" as modifying the clause that it's touching (but the "comma -ing" could come at the beginning, middle, or end). When it comes at the beginning, we often think of it as a noun modifier, but it's still the same thing. Slipping on the ice, I fell and broke my ankle. (Ouch!) --> I'm not just trying to say that *I* slipped on the ice. I'm trying to say that, as a result of slipping on the ice, *I fell.* I slipped on the ice, breaking my ankle. --> again, it's not just that I broke my ankle - it's that I broke it because I slipped. Note that I wouldn't say: I fell and broke my ankle, slipping on the ice. Why not? --> In general, there's a sequence to these constructions. The thing that's written first happens first, and the second thing happens after, as a result of, as a consequence of the first thing.

浅浅123 · 发表于 2012-2-26 20:16:43

我觉得这里第二点 s,ving，vo的形式做的是状语，首先如果是定语的话这句话就是错的，having done是不能充充当定语的，其次如果是定语的话何必还要加一个逗号呢，直接写S ving ..........+vo 不就可以了吗？ 

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<div style="text-align:left;">帮大家总结下~~~ 1)V+ing,SVO 可以修饰主语、谓语 noun modifier or verb modifier v-ing放到句子之前，不用太关心verb modifier，还是叫noun modifier，都无所谓，因为他就是针对主语的且和主句意思有关 </div> <div style="text-align:left;">Using the lastest technology, the engineer identified the problem.  （verb modifier） </div> <div style="text-align:left;">Using accounts of various ancient writers，scholarshave painted a sketchy picture of the activitiesof anall-female cult that, perhaps as early as the sixthcentury B.C., worshipped a goddess known in Latin asBona Dea, “the good goddess.”  （noun modifier） </div> <div style="text-align:left;">2)S,V+ing,VO 修饰主语 noun modifier </div> <div style="text-align:left;">Neuroscientists, V-ing, verb + object. </div> <div style="text-align:left;">3)SVO,V-ing 修饰谓语，句子   verb modifier or clause modifier（相当于副词adverbial modifier, modifies the entire action of the preceding clause and applies to the subject within that clause.） </div> <div style="text-align:left;">当V-ing作verb modifier 时，不能修饰现在完成时态的谓语 </div> I lifted the weight, whistling。（仅仅表示同时发生的一个动作） <div style="text-align:left;">OG11-24 /12-30For members of the seventeenth-century Ashanti nation in Africa, animal-hide shields with wooden frames were essential items of military equipment, a method to protect warriors against enemy arrows and spears. A. a method to protect B. as a method protecting C.

rotecting（C） D. as a protection of E. to protect 有童鞋(我也是。。)可能认为protecting 是修饰items或equipment, 但是"svo comma v-ing"必须是verb modifier！OG对此的解释是 revealing the purpose of the items.体会下为什么不说modify the items of military equipment? 因此protecting是 adv,表目的。 </div> <div style="text-align:left;"></div> <div style="text-align:left;">修饰句子往往表示由被修饰句子引起的结果，这种情况，ing结尾不存在问题 </div> <div style="text-align:left;"> Crime has recently decreased,leading to... </div> <div style="text-align:left;">TIPS:noun modifier 必须满足touch rule Verb modifer位置比较宽松，放在句首、句尾都可，但一定要applies to the subject 相关链接：<a href="http://www.beatthegmat.com/ing-modifier-three-different-versions-in-og-t38943.html#162443" target="_blank">http://www.beatthegmat.com/ing-modifier-three-different-versions-in-og-t38943.html#162443</a> http://forum.chasedream.com/GMAT_SC/thread-650744-4-1.html 在此万分感谢baby姐的帮助~ </div> <div style="text-align:right;">-- by 会员 yiayia (2012/2/5 15:40:50)</div> 
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babybearmm · 发表于 2012-2-27 19:53:21

回楼上，我觉得句首的"v-ing+comma"，不用纠结到底是定语还是状语，不管是啥，都必须apply to the subject就行，咱只需要理解句意做对题目，GMAT不考语法术语。 另：附件是e-gmat对v-ing&v-ed modifiers的全总结（就一个图），我觉得很赞

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