OG 80 vs. 174: the same as 与 that

bunnier

OG 174 和 80 已分别被讨论过多次，这次我们来比较一下：

174(C): A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year that The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn was published, reveals that Twain provided financial assistance to one of the first Black students at laceName>YalelaceName> laceName>LawlaceName> laceType>SchoollaceType>.

80(A). Salt deposits and moisture threaten to destroy the Mohenjo-Daro excavation in Pakistan, the site of an ancient civilization that flourished at the same time as the civilizations [did] in the Nile delta and the river valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates.

如果按174(C)的讲法，以下被修改的80(A)为什么不是更好？

80(~A). Salt deposits and moisture threaten to destroy the Mohenjo-Daro excavation in Pakistan, the site of an ancient civilization that flourished at the same time that the civilizations thrived in the Nile delta and the river valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates.

多多讨论．．．

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-6-7 12:51:54编辑过]

vincent0330

flourished=thrived

tianwan

可能ETS把year当作具体名词，time当作抽象名词。

the same as/that只是对于具体名词有意思的不同，the same as表示同样的但不是同一个，the same that表示同一个。

the same as/that对于抽象名词是一样的。

唐三彩

同意楼上的，

same sth + that clause  从句表示和sth是一个东东。

same sth + as clause    从句表示和sth相似的东东。

80题，几个文明的时代不可能同时发生，只是相近时间，所以笼统地用time表示，用as.

174， 2本书的出版确实一个年份，可以用精确的year来表示，用that.

另外偶认为要确定修饰sth，必须用that，而不是when/where/which（in the same place that/  the same person that/ in the same day that），不知道NN认为呢？？？

bon

以下是引用bunnier在2004-6-7 12:23:00的发言：

OG 174 和 80 已分别被讨论过多次，这次我们来比较一下：

174(C): A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year that The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn was published, reveals that Twain provided financial assistance to one of the first Black students at laceName>YalelaceName> laceName>LawlaceName> laceType>SchoollaceType>.

80(A). Salt deposits and moisture threaten to destroy the Mohenjo-Daro excavation in Pakistan, the site of an ancient civilization that flourished at the same time as the civilizations [did] in the Nile delta and the river valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates.

如果按174(C)的讲法，以下被修改的80(A)为什么不是更好？

80(~A). Salt deposits and moisture threaten to destroy the Mohenjo-Daro excavation in Pakistan, the site of an ancient civilization that flourished at the same time that the civilizations thrived in the Nile delta and the river valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates.

多多讨论．．．

我认为这是要看动作是否相同

第一句不能改成A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year as The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, reveals that Twain provided financial assistance to one of the first Black students at laceName>YalelaceName> laceName>LawlaceName> School.是因为The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn 是在这一年发表的，而不是在这一年写的

bunnier

诸位师兄讲的极是，the same as/that 说得是两码事：(1)相同东东，(2)同一个东东。问题在于该用哪个意思，细细琢磨tianwan兄和唐三彩兄提出的建议...

同意bon 兄，174（A）不能改成A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year as The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, 但为什么不能改成 A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year as The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn was published, ? 两件事同一年被完成？

多多讨论．．．

vincent0330

找了几个例子, 大家看看一起讨论......不见得相关.....

12.   Formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity do not apply to new small businesses in the same way as they do to established big businesses, because they are growing and are seldom in equilibrium.

(A) Formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity do not apply to new small businesses in the same way as they do to established big businesses, because they are growing and are seldom in equilibrium.

(B) Because they are growing and are seldom in equilibrium, formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity do not apply to new small businesses in the same way as they do to established big businesses.

(C) Because they are growing and are seldom in equilibrium, new small businesses are not subject to the same applicability of formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity as established big businesses.

(D) Because new small businesses are growing and are seldom in equilibrium, formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity do not apply to them in the same way as to established big businesses.（D）

(E) New small businesses are not subject to the applicability of formulas for cash flow and the ratio of debt to equity in the same way as established big businesses, because they are growing and are seldom in equilibrium.

In A, the they after because is ambiguous; it seems illogically to refer to Formulas because they and Formulas are each the grammatical subject of a clause and because the previous they refers to Formulas. In A and B, do not apply to... in the same way as they do to is wordy and awkward. D, the best choice, says more concisely in the same way as to. Also in B, because they refers to formulas, the introductory clause states confusedly that the formulas are growing. In C and E, subject to the [same] applicability of... is wordy, awkward, and imprecise; furthermore, are is preferable either before or after established big businesses to complete the comparison. Finally, the referent of they is not immediately clear in E.

这边ETS给出明确说法: in the same way as to, 再讨论......

25.   The end of the eighteenth century saw the emergence of prize-stock breeding, with individual bulls and cows receiving awards, fetching unprecedented prices, and excited enormous interest whenever they were put on show.

(A) excited

(B) it excited

(C) exciting

(D) would excite（C）

(E) it had excited

Choice C is best. The third verb phrase in the series describing bulls and cows should have the same grammatical form as the first two. Only choice C has a present participle (or “-ing” form) that is parallel with the two preceding verbs, receiving and fetching. Instead of the present participle, choices A and B use the past tense (excited), choice D uses an auxiliary verb (would excite), and choice E uses the past perfect tense (had excited). Additionally, the incorrect verb tenses in B and E are introduced by a pronoun, it, that lacks a logical noun referent.

这边的则是the same N as N

54.   Galileo was convinced that natural phenomena, as manifestations of the laws of physics, would appear the same to someone on the deck of a ship moving smoothly and uniformly through the water as a person standing on land.

(A) water as a

(B) water as to a

(C) water; just as it would to a

(D) water, as it would to the（B）

(E) water; just as to the

B, the best choice, uses the idiomatic and grammatically parallel form the same to X as to Y. Because A lacks the preposition to, it seems to compare the appearance of natural phenomena to that of a person standing on land. C and D unnecessarily repeat would and wrongly use the singular it to refer to the plural phenomena. C and E each contain a faulty semicolon and produce errors in idiom, the same to X just as [it would] to. D and E use the definite article the where the indefinite article a is needed to refer to an unspecified person.

这里的例子ETS也很明确: the same to X as to Y

92.   Never before had taxpayers confronted so many changes at once as they had in the Tax Reform Act of 1986.

(A) so many changes at once as they had in

(B) at once as many changes as

(C) at once as many changes that there were with

(D) as many changes at once as they confronted in（D）

(E) so many changes at once that confronted them in

Choice D is the best answer, stating grammatically and clearly that, with the 1986 Tax Reform Act, taxpayers confronted more simultaneous changes than ever before. In choice A, the past perfect had [confronted] illogically places the 1986 events in the same time frame as Never before had...; a simple past tense is needed to present the 1986 events as following the earlier ones. Choices B and C awkwardly place at once between confronted and its direct object, changes. Furthermore, B illogically states that the Act itself was many changes, when the point is rather that it presented many changes, and as many... that is an unidiomatic comparison. Choice E, too, presents an unidiomatic comparison with so many... that.

in the same Sth as Sth

109. Legislation in the Canadian province of Ontario requires of both public and private employers that pay be the same for jobs historically held by women as for jobs requiring comparable skill that are usually held by men.

(A) that pay be the same for jobs historically held by women as for jobs requiring comparable skill that are

(B) that pay for jobs historically held by women should be the same as for a job requiring comparable skills

(C) to pay the same in jobs historically held by women as in jobs of comparable skill that are

(D) to pay the same regardless of whether a job was historically held by women or is one demanding comparable skills（A）

(E) to pay as much for jobs historically held by women as for a job demanding comparable skills

Choice A is best. In choice B, should is illogical after requires, or at least unnecessary, and so is better omitted; in choices B and E, job does not agree in number with jobs; and in choices B, D, and E, the wording illogically describes the comparable skills rather than the jobs as being “usually held by men.” Choices C, D, and E produce the ungrammatical construction requires of... employers to pay, in which of makes the phrase incorrect. In C, the use of in rather than for is unidiomatic, and jobs of comparable skill confusedly suggests that the jobs rather than the workers possess the skills. In D, the phrase beginning regardless... is awkward and wordy in addition to being illogical.

the same for Sth as for Sth

168. Today, because of improvements in agricultural technology, the same amount of acreage produces double the apples that it has in 1910.

(A) double the apples that it has

(B) twice as many apples as it did

(C) as much as twice the apples it has

(D) two times as many apples as there were（B）

(E) a doubling of the apples that it did

Choice B, the best answer, correctly uses the adverbial phrase twice as many... to modify the verb produces; properly employs many rather than much to describe a quantity made up of countable units (apples); and appropriately substitutes did for the understood produced to express the logically necessary past tense of produces. Choice A awkwardly substitutes the adjective double for twice; uses that without a clear referent; and misuses has to refer to events occurring in 1910. Choice C employs the incorrect much in a wordy construction and also misuses has. D is wordy and imprecise;... as there were in 1910 refers to all apples produced in 1910, regardless of location. E is illogical: since that refers to a doubling, E nonsensically asserts that the doubling occurred in 1910.

这题比较另类, 是the same + as...as的同级比较

jnlvo

大全阅读搜出的句子，供大家参考：

Since the heat is not conducted outward to the surface to stimulate the appropriate receptors, the organism does not “appreciate” this stimulation in the same way that it “appreciates” heating and cooling of the skin.

the proponents of the theory that microwave radiation acts on organisms in the same way as other forms of radiation based their conclusions primarily on unfounded assumption.

animals apparently navigate in much the same way that human beings do

the Moon was formed in the same way as were the planets in the inner solar system (Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Earth)

bunnier

谢谢！ vincent0330兄和jnlvo兄的实例检验了ETS的思路。

以下是引用bunnier在2004-6-8 4:40:00的发言：

诸位师兄讲的极是，the same as/that 说得是两码事：(1)相同东东，(2)同一个东东。问题在于该用哪个意思，细细琢磨tianwan兄和唐三彩兄提出的建议...

同意bon 兄，174（A）不能改成A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year as The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, 但为什么不能改成 A letter by Mark Twain, written in the same year as The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn was published, ? 两件事同一年被完成？

以上的两个修改句不妥，某一年就是某一年，而没有相同一年。另一方面，Time (时代) 作为抽象名词，the same as/that 是一样的，所以，楼主的80(A)和80(~A)说得过去，相同或者同一时代咯~~~

个人理解，多多讨论．．．

vincent0330

80(~A). Salt deposits and moisture threaten to destroy the Mohenjo-Daro excavation in Pakistan, the site of an ancient civilization that flourished at the same time that the civilizations thrived in the Nile delta and the river valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates

个人意见:

可是我觉得这样用了两个that, 另外flourished和thrived也是同样的意思, 倒不如用as the civilization, 共用flourished的涵义来得好.....

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-7-4 10:03:08编辑过]