燕雀鸿鹄各有志, 长江放眼大风流

leosney

Dear Davidli8888: if you're from Ceibs, though Ceibs rank 11st in FT, do you really feel that Ceibs has become a international tier one bschool?

davidli8888

以下是引用leosney在2007-4-12 0:17:00的发言：

Dear Davidli8888: if you're from Ceibs, though Ceibs rank 11st in FT, do you really feel that Ceibs has become a international tier one bschool?

leosney, I am not from Ceibs. Instead, I am seriously considering both of them for application this year.

Frankly speaking, I share your views about that specific question. For either CK or Ceibs, there is a long way to go before either could be international or top tier bschool. I really love to see more bschools in China become truly international/top bschools, in terms of faculty quality, student body quality, research, job placement and career success in the long run.

As I said, considering the desire for future career success for MBA students, I really want CK to enhance its work on the attracting of international students. A diverse community can provide the real international and cross-cultural exposure, honing their skills working in a similar professional environment. Diversity has its expression in form, for example, in profession, career aspiration, culture, background and home countries; most importantly, it finds its substance in the pool of different ideas. Given the ambition for both CK and Ceibs, the quality of student body, including the international student portion, is among the key.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-4-12 10:08:26编辑过]

mba3000

I share with David's view that the proportion of international students should increase at CK. For that,  CK needs to face to face communication with foreign students like what CK is doing with Chinese students. It is harder to do.

foever

申请者对长江的疑问是可以理解的，我们这些长江的毕业生也如此。我们也一直疑惑，直到去年年底，我们一些校友是打算“质问”项兵的，但最终被他说服了，至少我这样，前不久更多校友为排名等事和他座谈，也是类似的结果。他不仅是忽悠，成绩是显著的，长江这么年轻就和insead\wharton\Columbia等顶尖名校合作，尤其和insead合作非常紧密，那么知名华人教授加盟（他们可以去至少亚太地区任何一所名校）。排名只是一个衡量指标，从其他侧面可能更能说明问题，我们申请时，第一届学生还没毕业，没有职业发展报告，长江也没其他可参考，现在我们也没觉得后悔。

 

至于国际化，我想国际化如果真正成功绝对不是现在的平均年薪，薪水水平是国际化重要指标之一，当人家愿意付你global pay时我们才能说得倒了国际的真正认可，其他指标相对比较弱，不是有多少个黄头发、蓝眼睛的学生就叫国际化，随便招些人很容易。国际学生在中国由于语言、文化、和企业要负担可能更高薪水等原因，不如中国学生有竞争力；回国也竞争不过前20名的商学院（我想这目前基本是个事实），其实处境满尴尬的。包括教授，长江也可以招些二流的老外常驻教授（长江大约有1/3老外访问教授，来自沃顿、达顿等），这种国际化有什么意义呢？长江学生现在只要愿意其实基本都可以去海外名校交换，这是我们毕业时感到长江的最大不足，去年长江已经实现了，我们很欣慰！

（一家之言，仅供参考，我通常不愿意在公共论坛谈及比较敏感的话题，不过不少申请者比较关心）

davidli8888

以下是引用mba3000在2007-4-11 20:25:00的发言：

I believe Dean Xiang wants to lead CKGSB to become a better business school and build that based on what practitioners, students, and academicians need in China. He wants people to think in the big picture, in the long term. That is why he stresses doing your job using your mind, heart, and soul.

Ranking could be misleading and misguide the energy of the deans of business schools. Take FT for example, they put 20% of the weight on faculty strength. out of this 20%, 10% of the weight is on internationalization, 5% on teaching and another 5% on faculty research. CKGSB wants to build a research school and hire faculty whose research is highly respected. If CKGSB pursues FT ranking as a goal, then it has to change its strategg, which is not what Dean Xiang wants. Using the same rationale, Harvard, Wharton have pulled out of participating in Business Week ranking or refuse to provide data to them.

The utlimate goal is to build CKGSB to become a top business school in people's mind. Ranking is secondary and a derivative of that. If participation in ranking sidestep CKGSB from its main focus, then CKGSB should not participate. On the other hand, if participation in ranking helps, then CKGSB should. It is a judgement call. Right now, ranking does not help CKGSB based on the following views according to Dean Xiang.

The point I want to make is, put you in the shoes of top applicants, imagine what challenges they have when they have to come up with a short-listed bschools for action/application, and figure out what they have gone through to make that decision. I believe ranking plays an important role here: no many applicants are experts in MBA education, and they believe the quality of an MBA program just because of the ranking place. Please remember, a lot of nice, decent programs are in it, and they want to see their would-be programs are among them.

What I am talking about is marketing, and the resultant quality of student body. Each MBA program is unique, and meanwhile it share sth in common with others. That is why they share one common name -bschool. If the top quality appilcants cannot understand the logic CK believes in, CK may find hard to be among ranks in top bschools.

In this sense, raking is the cost any bschool has to pay. In fact, I do not believe CK cannot make a perfect balance between high quality of education and marketing. That is real problem? ???????

davidli8888

以下是引用foever在2007-4-12 9:36:00的发言：

申请者对长江的疑问是可以理解的，我们这些长江的毕业生也如此。我们也一直疑惑，直到去年年底，我们一些校友是打算“质问”项兵的，但最终被他说服了，至少我这样，前不久更多校友为排名等事和他座谈，也是类似的结果。他不仅是忽悠，成绩是显著的，长江这么年轻就和insead\wharton\Columbia等顶尖名校合作，尤其和insead合作非常紧密，那么知名华人教授加盟（他们可以去至少亚太地区任何一所名校）。排名只是一个衡量指标，从其他侧面可能更能说明问题，我们申请时，第一届学生还没毕业，没有职业发展报告，长江也没其他可参考，现在我们也没觉得后悔。

 至于国际化，我想国际化如果真正成功绝对不是现在的平均年薪，薪水水平是国际化重要指标之一，当人家愿意付你global pay时我们才能说得倒了国际的真正认可，其他指标相对比较弱，不是有多少个黄头发、蓝眼睛的学生就叫国际化，随便招些人很容易。国际学生在中国由于语言、文化、和企业要负担可能更高薪水等原因，不如中国学生有竞争力；回国也竞争不过前20名的商学院（我想这目前基本是个事实），其实处境满尴尬的。包括教授，长江也可以招些二流的老外常驻教授（长江大约有1/3老外访问教授，来自沃顿、达顿等），这种国际化有什么意义呢？长江学生现在只要愿意其实基本都可以去海外名校交换，这是我们毕业时感到长江的最大不足，去年长江已经实现了，我们很欣慰！（一家之言，仅供参考，我通常不愿意在公共论坛谈及比较敏感的话题，不过不少申请者比较关心）

foever: 国际学生在中国由于语言、文化、和企业要负担可能更高薪水等原因，不如中国学生有竞争力；回国也竞争不过前20名的商学院（我想这目前基本是个事实），其实处境满尴尬的。

May I say that signifies lack of confidence on part of CK? If CK cannot turn out the best MBAs in terms of career success and pay hike for international students, how can it aspire to be top 10 in the near future? If Chinese MBAs are doomed to get less pay to get an equal position, can we call the discrimination?

长江学生现在只要愿意其实基本都可以去海外名校交换.

Considering the short-term nature, you cannot expect that too much. You have to work on study, have to adapt to the new environment, and have to understand the culture, all in just 3 months. You have really too short a time frame to mingle with other students.

The highlight for having international students as classmates is you can observe and even ask stupid questions without caring too much otherwise the consequences. If you know you have to work with people frrom different countries in professional settings, you will understand what valuable experience it is. 

foever

我说的国际学生的问题不是专指长江，有些敏感，本来不想提。这和信心没什么关系，而且信心不是凭空来的，要一做，否则那种信心没意义，也不可能有信心。

能去top10或20的我“现在”还是更鼓励他们去的，这点自知之明还是有的。很多人不出国读海外名校是因为想在国内发展、家庭原因、资金原因等。出国不是适合每一个人的，不同选择肯定各有优劣。在国外未必怎样，中国学生想融入欧美社会不是很容易，名校毕业的找到理想的工作也不容易，知名投行和咨询公司本土人打破头都未必能进的去，甚至英语也未必能提高，课堂上根本就没中国学生发言的多少机会。我有同学就读于海外名校，或者交换回来的也聊过，可能和你了解的不同。

其实很多事不可能什么都要得到，会相互冲突的，了解自己的定位和需要很重要。我当初只申请了长江，我知道哪个更适合我。

foever

我说的国际学生的问题不是专指长江，有些敏感，本来不想提。这和信心没什么关系，而且信心不是凭空来的，要一做，否则那种信心没意义，也不可能有信心。

能去top10或20的我“现在”还是更鼓励他们去的，这点自知之明还是有的。很多人不出国读海外名校是因为想在国内发展、家庭原因、资金原因等。出国不是适合每一个人的，不同选择肯定各有优劣。在国外未必怎样，中国学生想融入欧美社会不是很容易，名校毕业的找到理想的工作也不容易，知名投行和咨询公司本土人打破头都未必能进的去，甚至英语也未必能提高，课堂上根本就没中国学生发言的多少机会。我有同学就读于海外名校，或者交换回来的也聊过，可能和你了解的不同。

其实很多事不可能什么都要得到，会相互冲突的，了解自己的定位和需要很重要。我当初只申请了长江，我知道哪个更适合我。

davidli8888

Foever, thank you for the sharing.

What we are talking about is, what kind of educational experience we really expect of CK or Ceibs? MBA education is a big investment in human capital, so it is for an MBA at China if you take the opportunity cost you forgo into consideration. You want MBA to leverage you to next level of your career, ie. more opportunities, more useful network, and soft-skills and experience which can find use in your professional settings. If an MBA cannot reasonably bring us these stuff, we may should take a serious second look at the ROI and other alternatives.

Strategically speaking, no top student body means no top MBA program. That is why top MBA programs offer generous scholarship to high-flying applicants. Top quality applicants have many choices. Do not assume they will take your perspective for granted.

A truly international community/class will transform us, forcing us to accept the diversity in the world. If you do not have such experience, you will find some challenges to learn those skills and experience at a professional settings.

seanbb

May I say that signifies lack of confidence on part of CK? If CK cannot turn out the best MBAs in terms of career success and pay hike for international students, how can it aspire to be top 10 in the near future? If Chinese MBAs are doomed to get less pay to get an equal position, can we call the discrimination?

如果CKorCEIBS的学生都可以拿global pay，那为何要去美国或者欧洲读MBA呢？国内商学院的学费和生活费大概只有欧美的1/4或者1/5。

MBA是投资，投的少当然收的少了。