verbal 20求指导

xohe赵

1.Declining values for farm equipment and land,thecollateral against which farmers borrow to get throughthe harvest season, is going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring. (A)the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, is (B)which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, is (C)the collateral which is borrowed against by farmers to get through the harvest season, is (D)which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, are (E)the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are D.  og说redundant。 谁能解释下 怎么redundant。use  as 可以这么用啊······

bebravery

先说正确选项  the collateral against which farmers borrow
这里borrow against是固定搭配，凭...借钱。which指代collateral。
翻译出来农民凭这些抵押品借钱。

错误选项D: which farmers use as collateral to borrow against 则显得redundant，不如一个同位语来的concise。

abjure

我觉得collateral 做同位语修饰farm equipment and land   同位语修饰比较好 用定语从句which修饰不如同位语  而且use as 也不如直接用同位语简洁

-- by 会员 flonacui (2012/11/21 11:15:43)

这道题我D,E选项 我也犹豫了下，后面我选了E。
理由是。 我觉得 farm equipment and land 和 collateral 在这句话里起到相同功能和意思， 这是典型的同位语用法。碰到这种情况不应该用 "which caluse" 我印象OG和PREP里面有类似题目。

假如我们把它改成 D选项 which clause:    farm equipment and land, which... use as collateral  明显显得多余， 因为说了这么多，表达还是E同位语一个单词得意思。

xohe赵

也就是说介+which可以做限定性修饰？只是因为介后面不能跟that，所以就跟了which?
（因为关于限定修饰的问题我记得PREP上有道题的解释是专门拿它做split点的，所以我想把这个问题进一步弄清楚~~）

另外，这道题你可以google一下manhattan的解释，D选项里最大的毛病是语义的重复：which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season中use as和to borrow against 实际上重复了，改成：which farmers use as collateral to get through the harvest season或者against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season就可以了~，D中等于是use farm equipment and land as collateral to borrow against(farm equipment and land),重复了两遍呢~~~

-- by 会员 yiqing2012 (2012/11/21 18:00:28)

你的意思是which 在这里放两个地方哦（不算which没有带against的错误）。一个地方在use 后面一个在against后面。
还有，个人觉得以限定和非限定在考场那么紧的时间还是不好判断吧。。。。你必须得揣摩作者的意图
所以我觉得还是把这个split放在最后面哦

-- by 会员 xohe赵 (2012/11/21 18:40:10)

which肯定是做use的宾语的，但是这里use as 和borrow against有语义的重复，所以用一个就好啦~~
关于限定和非限定我同意楼主的意见，确实是个tricky的地方，最好还是不要把它当成split点，毕竟功力不到，搞不好就弄错作者的意图了。。。

-- by 会员 yiqing2012 (2012/11/21 18:51:50)

我最开始也注意到这点。就是很多题目中把定语和谓语互换。但是我发现GMAC没有一个统一的标准，所以还得靠我们自己的对题目意思的积累。加油吧

yiqing2012

也就是说介+which可以做限定性修饰？只是因为介后面不能跟that，所以就跟了which?
（因为关于限定修饰的问题我记得PREP上有道题的解释是专门拿它做split点的，所以我想把这个问题进一步弄清楚~~）

另外，这道题你可以google一下manhattan的解释，D选项里最大的毛病是语义的重复：which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season中use as和to borrow against 实际上重复了，改成：which farmers use as collateral to get through the harvest season或者against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season就可以了~，D中等于是use farm equipment and land as collateral to borrow against(farm equipment and land),重复了两遍呢~~~

-- by 会员 yiqing2012 (2012/11/21 18:00:28)

你的意思是which 在这里放两个地方哦（不算which没有带against的错误）。一个地方在use 后面一个在against后面。
还有，个人觉得以限定和非限定在考场那么紧的时间还是不好判断吧。。。。你必须得揣摩作者的意图
所以我觉得还是把这个split放在最后面哦

-- by 会员 xohe赵 (2012/11/21 18:40:10)

which肯定是做use的宾语的，但是这里use as 和borrow against有语义的重复，所以用一个就好啦~~
关于限定和非限定我同意楼主的意见，确实是个tricky的地方，最好还是不要把它当成split点，毕竟功力不到，搞不好就弄错作者的意图了。。。

xohe赵

也就是说介+which可以做限定性修饰？只是因为介后面不能跟that，所以就跟了which?
（因为关于限定修饰的问题我记得PREP上有道题的解释是专门拿它做split点的，所以我想把这个问题进一步弄清楚~~）

另外，这道题你可以google一下manhattan的解释，D选项里最大的毛病是语义的重复：which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season中use as和to borrow against 实际上重复了，改成：which farmers use as collateral to get through the harvest season或者against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season就可以了~，D中等于是use farm equipment and land as collateral to borrow against(farm equipment and land),重复了两遍呢~~~

-- by 会员 yiqing2012 (2012/11/21 18:00:28)

你的意思是which 在这里放两个地方哦（不算which没有带against的错误）。一个地方在use 后面一个在against后面。
还有，个人觉得以限定和非限定在考场那么紧的时间还是不好判断吧。。。。你必须得揣摩作者的意图
所以我觉得还是把这个split放在最后面哦

yiqing2012

也就是说介+which可以做限定性修饰？只是因为介后面不能跟that，所以就跟了which?
（因为关于限定修饰的问题我记得PREP上有道题的解释是专门拿它做split点的，所以我想把这个问题进一步弄清楚~~）

另外，这道题你可以google一下manhattan的解释，D选项里最大的毛病是语义的重复：which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season中use as和to borrow against 实际上重复了，改成：which farmers use as collateral to get through the harvest season或者against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season就可以了~，D中等于是use farm equipment and land as collateral to borrow against(farm equipment and land),重复了两遍呢~~~

xohe赵

我觉得这道题很有深度啊。。。其实我自己还不是完全明白，先说说自己的想法~

首先关于LZ的问题，我觉得这里的farm equipment and land应该不能用非限定which来修饰的，因为这里是特指那些被用来作为抵押的farm equipment and land~

之前我想到这里的时候就突然发现后面的against which(这是我觉得疑惑的地方)，虽然OG13上说对于that和which的限定和非限定还没有完全定论，但是做题目的时候发现官方的题目一般都还是倾向于限定用that并且前面没有逗号,非限定用which并且前面打逗号，那么这里against which为什么前面没有逗号呢？难道是因为介+which可以做限定修饰？

请NN解答~

-- by 会员 yiqing2012 (2012/11/21 16:03:37)

对。我记得上高中的时候老师讲过，先行词放在介词后不能用that 而应该用which 并且看国外一个NN的解释哈
I think a lot of people get confused by the separation of a relative pronoun from the noun to which it's referring. That is, when I say:

"This is the post which will explain everything,"

it is easy to see that "which" refers to "post." It gets a little bit harder (but it shouldn't!) when I say:

"This is the post in which I will explain everything."

Here the word "in" is inserted but it's still okay. The reason that we have "in which" is that, logically, if we made the Relative Clause ("in which I will explain everything") into the main sentence, it would read: "I will explain everything in this post." So, since "post," replaced by "which" in the original sentence, would be the object of "in," "which" should also be the object of "in," so they have to go together: "in which" instead of "in the post."

No problem so far. But then it turns into this:

"This is the post the topic of which will be the explanation of everything."

Again, take the relative clause and pretend it's the main sentence. It would read: "The topic of this post will be the explanation of everything." This sentence would NOT make sense if we split up the left hand side. "Of this post, the topic will be the explanation of everything"? NO. The only way it makes sense is if "the topic of this post" is all together at the beginning of the sentence. As a result, when we use a relative clause, we have to slip "which" into its rightful place in the same construction. This leads us to the seemingly-awkward-but-actually-correct "the topic of which."

So, when you see a few words before the "which" or "who" or other relative pronoun, words that are part of the logic of the Relative Clause, realize that that's totally okay: the "which" still refers to the last noun or noun idea in the previous clause and, as long as it's in its rightful position in the logic of the relative clause, it's not only correct, it's actually grammatically clearer.


你看一下哈

xohe赵

句子开头是Declining values for farm equipment and land，那就需要一个与之匹配的逻辑主语，which 应到的句子做逻辑主语与declining配不上啊。而且如果从句做主语的话，应该是用that做引导词。而且use ＋as不是很怪么, use什么as啊，也没有这样的搭配，最后against什么呢？

-- by 会员 伤追人 (2012/11/21 15:24:09)

Declining values for farm equipment and land 本身就是主语哈。所以不存在逻辑主语哦 ···

xohe赵

Declining values for farm equipment and land 本身就是主语哈。所以不存在逻辑主语哦 ···