OG 12 SC 67. 时态后移的问题，看前帖未解~

赤尾屿

Affording strategic proximity to the Strait of Gibraltar, Morocco was also of interest to the French throughout the first half of the twentieth century because they assumed that if they did not hold it, their grip on Algeria was always insecure.
(A) if they did not hold it, their grip on Algeria was always insecure
(B) without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure
(C) their grip on Algeria was not ever secure if they did not hold it
(D) without that, they could never be secure about their grip on Algeria
(E) never would their grip on Algeria be secure if they did not hold it
这道题，看了很多帖子，请教一个还是没弄明白的一个问题。关于B选项
今天看Manhattan，里面说
With a past tense reporting verb. move Present to Past. Past to Past Perfect. and Future to Conditional (that is.will to would).
转述动词，从句里的动词时态应该后移。
例：Scientist: The supercollider IS ready, it DID not COST too much, and it WILL PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe."
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.

同理，B选项和上面的例子很类似，看未划线部分they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...后面的动词也应该后移啊。
既然would就是原形表示虚拟conditional，那放在这样的past tense reporting verb也应该后移变成 would have never been secure...才对啊~
不然这里的would never secure只能理解成will的过去时态，就不是OG所说的虚拟语气了。
求问我的想法错在了哪里呢？
谢谢啊~~~

abjure

1. 你给的Manhattan书上的例子很对，恰恰说明B选项是正确的。
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.
they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...


2. 虚拟语气叫做subjunctive mood. 这里的"would never be"和"would provide"叫做conditional tense （详见Glossary）。
subjunctive mood和conditional tense是两回事，有交集但不相等，不要混为一谈。详见Manhattan verb那一章。

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 16:16:35)

哇~~~好开心啊，我终于把这个纠结的would搞明白的！！！
真心感谢baby姐！！！不然我就要在自己错误的认识中前行了...好可怕
听baby姐的，我去把Manhattan上面那几个我很模糊的名词一一对照看了，很清楚：
1：Conditional Tense- A verb tense formed by combining the helping verb would with the base form of the verb.
Examples:
1）Future as seen from the past: He said that he would write.
2）Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ：If she liked pizza, she would like this restaurant.
2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
虚拟和conditional tense都是有两个定义，正好就有一个几乎相同，就是baby姐所说的重合~~~
conditional tense有两种分类：
一种就是Future as seen from the past，我问的这个OG 67题就是这种的例子，就属于past condition。
还有一道题：
OG12 16
16. Retail sales rose 0.8 of 1 percent in August, intensifying expectations that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of the 1.4 percent growth rate in personal spending for the previous quarter.
(A) that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of
(B) that personal spending in the July-September quarter would more than double
(C) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it more than doubled
(D) of personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubling that of
(E) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it would more than double that of
这里的expectation也是在过去时刻对未来的推测，也属于past condition，第一种。
另一种是Hypothetical result of unlikely condition。表示与事实相反,或者可能性很小的假设。和虚拟语气重合。（因为67题是可能性很大，几乎是确定的，所以也肯定不该是这一种）
OG上面的有例题：
OG41
41. To develop more accurate population forecasts, demographers have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic determinants of fertility.
(A) have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
(B) have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(C) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(D) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economic
(E) would have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
C。因为与事实相反，虽然是在一般现在时态里面，也要用would.用OG的话说就是conditional-or contrary-to-fact-constrction。也就是Manhattan说的这个第二种。
我之所以以为would还应该往后推时态，就是看到上面这道题在一般现在时里面，表示conditional就用的would,所以暗自以为那过去时态的句子里面就该would往后面推了。却没想到conditional tense居然是有两种。
baby姐我这样分析的对不？
这下我应该是清楚了，再次谢谢baby姐姐

-- by 会员 赤尾屿 (2012/8/1 18:29:28)

2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
对于这一段的解释我不是很同意，我看帖子楼主想表达的意思是  在2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.中he would help us是Hypothetical Subjunctive。  但是事实上manhattan上说的是 If he were in charge 才是Hypothetical Subjunctive。根本没有重复。而 he would help us.在这里是conditional tense.所以楼主的问题是还没有解决的。。



不知道这么分析对不对  求 NN解释

-- by 会员 xohe赵 (2012/12/5 15:51:36)

同问

其实我还是没搞清楚LZ说的 conditional （Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ）第二种 和 hypothetical subjunctive 语义上到底有什么区别

2）Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ：If she liked pizza, she would like this restaurant.

2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.

请NN解释下。

xohe赵

1. 你给的Manhattan书上的例子很对，恰恰说明B选项是正确的。
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.
they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...


2. 虚拟语气叫做subjunctive mood. 这里的"would never be"和"would provide"叫做conditional tense （详见Glossary）。
subjunctive mood和conditional tense是两回事，有交集但不相等，不要混为一谈。详见Manhattan verb那一章。

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 16:16:35)

哇~~~好开心啊，我终于把这个纠结的would搞明白的！！！
真心感谢baby姐！！！不然我就要在自己错误的认识中前行了...好可怕
听baby姐的，我去把Manhattan上面那几个我很模糊的名词一一对照看了，很清楚：
1：Conditional Tense- A verb tense formed by combining the helping verb would with the base form of the verb.
Examples:
1）Future as seen from the past: He said that he would write.
2）Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ：If she liked pizza, she would like this restaurant.
2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
虚拟和conditional tense都是有两个定义，正好就有一个几乎相同，就是baby姐所说的重合~~~
conditional tense有两种分类：
一种就是Future as seen from the past，我问的这个OG 67题就是这种的例子，就属于past condition。
还有一道题：
OG12 16
16. Retail sales rose 0.8 of 1 percent in August, intensifying expectations that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of the 1.4 percent growth rate in personal spending for the previous quarter.
(A) that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of
(B) that personal spending in the July-September quarter would more than double
(C) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it more than doubled
(D) of personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubling that of
(E) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it would more than double that of
这里的expectation也是在过去时刻对未来的推测，也属于past condition，第一种。
另一种是Hypothetical result of unlikely condition。表示与事实相反,或者可能性很小的假设。和虚拟语气重合。（因为67题是可能性很大，几乎是确定的，所以也肯定不该是这一种）
OG上面的有例题：
OG41
41. To develop more accurate population forecasts, demographers have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic determinants of fertility.
(A) have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
(B) have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(C) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(D) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economic
(E) would have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
C。因为与事实相反，虽然是在一般现在时态里面，也要用would.用OG的话说就是conditional-or contrary-to-fact-constrction。也就是Manhattan说的这个第二种。
我之所以以为would还应该往后推时态，就是看到上面这道题在一般现在时里面，表示conditional就用的would,所以暗自以为那过去时态的句子里面就该would往后面推了。却没想到conditional tense居然是有两种。
baby姐我这样分析的对不？
这下我应该是清楚了，再次谢谢baby姐姐

-- by 会员 赤尾屿 (2012/8/1 18:29:28)

2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
对于这一段的解释我不是很同意，我看帖子楼主想表达的意思是  在2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.中he would help us是Hypothetical Subjunctive。  但是事实上manhattan上说的是 If he were in charge 才是Hypothetical Subjunctive。根本没有重复。而 he would help us.在这里是conditional tense.所以楼主的问题是还没有解决的。。



不知道这么分析对不对  求 NN解释

-- by 会员 xohe赵 (2012/12/5 15:51:36)

xohe赵

1. 你给的Manhattan书上的例子很对，恰恰说明B选项是正确的。
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.
they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...


2. 虚拟语气叫做subjunctive mood. 这里的"would never be"和"would provide"叫做conditional tense （详见Glossary）。
subjunctive mood和conditional tense是两回事，有交集但不相等，不要混为一谈。详见Manhattan verb那一章。

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 16:16:35)

哇~~~好开心啊，我终于把这个纠结的would搞明白的！！！
真心感谢baby姐！！！不然我就要在自己错误的认识中前行了...好可怕
听baby姐的，我去把Manhattan上面那几个我很模糊的名词一一对照看了，很清楚：
1：Conditional Tense- A verb tense formed by combining the helping verb would with the base form of the verb.
Examples:
1）Future as seen from the past: He said that he would write.
2）Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ：If she liked pizza, she would like this restaurant.
2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
虚拟和conditional tense都是有两个定义，正好就有一个几乎相同，就是baby姐所说的重合~~~
conditional tense有两种分类：
一种就是Future as seen from the past，我问的这个OG 67题就是这种的例子，就属于past condition。
还有一道题：
OG12 16
16. Retail sales rose 0.8 of 1 percent in August, intensifying expectations that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of the 1.4 percent growth rate in personal spending for the previous quarter.
(A) that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of
(B) that personal spending in the July-September quarter would more than double
(C) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it more than doubled
(D) of personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubling that of
(E) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it would more than double that of
这里的expectation也是在过去时刻对未来的推测，也属于past condition，第一种。
另一种是Hypothetical result of unlikely condition。表示与事实相反,或者可能性很小的假设。和虚拟语气重合。（因为67题是可能性很大，几乎是确定的，所以也肯定不该是这一种）
OG上面的有例题：
OG41
41. To develop more accurate population forecasts, demographers have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic determinants of fertility.
(A) have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
(B) have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(C) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(D) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economic
(E) would have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
C。因为与事实相反，虽然是在一般现在时态里面，也要用would.用OG的话说就是conditional-or contrary-to-fact-constrction。也就是Manhattan说的这个第二种。
我之所以以为would还应该往后推时态，就是看到上面这道题在一般现在时里面，表示conditional就用的would,所以暗自以为那过去时态的句子里面就该would往后面推了。却没想到conditional tense居然是有两种。
baby姐我这样分析的对不？
这下我应该是清楚了，再次谢谢baby姐姐

-- by 会员 赤尾屿 (2012/8/1 18:29:28)

2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
对于这一段的解释我不是很同意，我看帖子楼主想表达的意思是  在2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.中he would help us是Hypothetical Subjunctive。  但是事实上manhattan上说的是 If he were in charge 才是Hypothetical Subjunctive。根本没有重复。而 he would help us.在这里是conditional tense.所以楼主的问题是还没有解决的。。



不知道这么分析对不对  求 NN解释

fpd

请问Lz在你举的第41题中'如果是conditional的第二种情况，那么不是成了，hypothetical 的形式了么？为什么没有if 呢？

abjure

这两者概念我也混淆了。谢LZ

赤尾屿

Nice analysis. Well done!

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 18:37:08)

(*^__^*) ，谢谢baby姐的鼓励！！！

babybearmm

Nice analysis. Well done!

赤尾屿

1. 你给的Manhattan书上的例子很对，恰恰说明B选项是正确的。
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.
they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...


2. 虚拟语气叫做subjunctive mood. 这里的"would never be"和"would provide"叫做conditional tense （详见Glossary）。
subjunctive mood和conditional tense是两回事，有交集但不相等，不要混为一谈。详见Manhattan verb那一章。

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 16:16:35)

哇~~~好开心啊，我终于把这个纠结的would搞明白的！！！
真心感谢baby姐！！！不然我就要在自己错误的认识中前行了...好可怕
听baby姐的，我去把Manhattan上面那几个我很模糊的名词一一对照看了，很清楚：
1：Conditional Tense- A verb tense formed by combining the helping verb would with the base form of the verb.
Examples:
1）Future as seen from the past: He said that he would write.
2）Hypothetical result of unlikely condition ：If she liked pizza, she would like this restaurant.
2：Subjunctive Mood - One of two verb forms indicating desires, suggestions, or unreal or unlikely conditions.
Examples:
1）Command Subjunctive: She requested that he stop the car.
2）Hypothetical Subjunctive: If he were in charge, he would help us.
虚拟和conditional tense都是有两个定义，正好就有一个几乎相同，就是baby姐所说的重合~~~
conditional tense有两种分类：
一种就是Future as seen from the past，我问的这个OG 67题就是这种的例子，就属于past condition。
还有一道题：
OG12 16
16. Retail sales rose 0.8 of 1 percent in August, intensifying expectations that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of the 1.4 percent growth rate in personal spending for the previous quarter.
(A) that personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubled that of
(B) that personal spending in the July-September quarter would more than double
(C) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it more than doubled
(D) of personal spending in the July-September quarter more than doubling that of
(E) of personal spending in the July-September quarter, that it would more than double that of
这里的expectation也是在过去时刻对未来的推测，也属于past condition，第一种。
另一种是Hypothetical result of unlikely condition。表示与事实相反,或者可能性很小的假设。和虚拟语气重合。（因为67题是可能性很大，几乎是确定的，所以也肯定不该是这一种）
OG上面的有例题：
OG41
41. To develop more accurate population forecasts, demographers have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic determinants of fertility.
(A) have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
(B) have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(C) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economical
(D) would have to know a great deal more than they do now about the social and economic
(E) would have to know a great deal more than now about the social and economic
C。因为与事实相反，虽然是在一般现在时态里面，也要用would.用OG的话说就是conditional-or contrary-to-fact-constrction。也就是Manhattan说的这个第二种。
我之所以以为would还应该往后推时态，就是看到上面这道题在一般现在时里面，表示conditional就用的would,所以暗自以为那过去时态的句子里面就该would往后面推了。却没想到conditional tense居然是有两种。
baby姐我这样分析的对不？
这下我应该是清楚了，再次谢谢baby姐姐

babybearmm

Scientist: The supercollider IS ready, it DID not COST too much, and it WILL PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe."
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.



Assumption at present: without it their grip on Algeria will never be secure.
They assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure.


注意OG第一段的解释，说这叫past condition的结构。

Affording strategic proximity to the Strait of Gibraltar, Morocco was also of interest to the French throughout the first half of the twentieth century because they assumed that if they did not hold it, their grip on Algeria was always insecure.
(A) if they did not hold it, their grip on Algeria was always insecure
(B) without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure
(C) their grip on Algeria was not ever secure if they did not hold it
(D) without that, they could never be secure about their grip on Algeria
(E) never would their grip on Algeria be secure if they did not hold it
这道题，看了很多帖子，请教一个还是没弄明白的一个问题。关于B选项
今天看Manhattan，里面说
With a past tense reporting verb. move Present to Past. Past to Past Perfect. and Future to Conditional (that is.will to would).
转述动词，从句里的动词时态应该后移。
例：Scientist: The supercollider IS ready, it DID not COST too much, and it WILL PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe."
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.

同理，B选项和上面的例子很类似，看未划线部分they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...后面的动词也应该后移啊。
既然would就是原形表示虚拟conditional，那放在这样的past tense reporting verb也应该后移变成 would have never been secure...才对啊~
不然这里的would never secure只能理解成will的过去时态，就不是OG所说的虚拟语气了。
求问我的想法错在了哪里呢？
谢谢啊~~~

-- by 会员 赤尾屿 (2012/7/31 22:44:16)

1. 你给的Manhattan书上的例子很对，恰恰说明B选项是正确的。
The scientist ANNOUNCED that the supercollider WAS ready, that it HAD not COST too much, and that it WOULD PROVIDE new insights into the workings of the universe.
they assumed that without it their grip on Algeria would never be secure...


2. 虚拟语气叫做subjunctive mood. 这里的"would never be"和"would provide"叫做conditional tense （详见Glossary）。
subjunctive mood和conditional tense是两回事，有交集但不相等，不要混为一谈。详见Manhattan verb那一章。

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/8/1 16:16:35)