由OG12 15题想到的一些问题

zhongshanlh

15. Warning that computers in the UnitedStates are no secure, the National Academy of Sciences has urge the nation torevamp computer security procedures， institute new emergency response teams, creating a specialnongovernment organization to take charge of computer security planning.

(A) creating a special nongovernmentorganization to take

(B) creating a special nongovernmentorganization that takes

(C) creating a special nongovernmentorganization for taking

(D) and create a special nongovernment organizationfor taking

(E) and create a special nongovernment organizationto take

很简单的一个题目，OA：E

通过这个题目我主要是想到了一些其他东西

因为听了Ron的study hall以后Ron举了一个例子

plan for  doing与plan to do去区别一个是表示的actual action（to do）另一个表示的是final goal（for doing），于是看到这个题目以后我不自觉的就联想到了Ron讲的那个。

但是看到这个题目呢，to在这里是作为表目的的用法，所以感觉这里的to do跟Ron在plan to do中不属于一个类别...但是Ron又提到plan for doing中这个for doing也可以表示goal与purpose，就是说for doing也可以有表目的的用法。然后我又想到在其他一个论坛的一对例子：i bought the shoes to run 与i bought the shoes for running.我记得这两个句子的区别在于to do表示我买鞋的目的是我要去跑步，而for running表达暗含的意思是这个shoes的本身的性质是for running的。

上面说了一堆，有点乱。。。呼唤baby姐及各位NN...

PS.关于这个题目的一个问题，最后正确选项中的to take表目的我知道，但是这个to take做的是整个句子的目的状语呢还是create organization这个动作的目的状语呢？根据句意来看，应当是create organization的目的状语，因为前面这个动作revamp computer security procedures的目的不能take charge。但是如果我把句子稍微改写一下，比如把前面这个revamp computer security procedures去掉，那么这种情况下是不是就会产生歧义，导致我们无法判断to take到底是谁的目的状语？（难道to take有就近原则什么的么？）

windmist

babybearmm 发表于 2012-4-26 09:30
If you pool all the related questions together, you can see that all these questions share the same  ...

note that “taking charge of something” is NOT an ongoing process or general procedure--------为什么啊？不是指负责之类的意思吗？比如 take charge of the department   难道还一次性负责此部门？

不过我看到过的take charge of前面都是接的to，难道是习惯用法？og里面也是说but for taking is neither precise nor idiomatic.

zhongshanlh

需要认识到的核心问题就是to do是instant action而for doing是lasting action

呵~我本来也是属于始终没弄清to do和for doing的那种，不过看完了Ron的解释，再看baby姐的详细分析之后就好清楚了。不知道zhongshanlh童鞋懂了没？我也来说说我的看法吧。

你问的那个adv. modifer什么的理解着好复杂，按baby姐分析的，其实都是用这两个的意思就解决了。
1、to do是表示“即时的目的”，更像是一种action。Ron举的例子里：
I need to get a new pair of shoes to run.
get a new pair of shoes就是达到to run的直接手段和方法。我穿上新鞋是为了马上就可以跑了。
2、for doing是表示“达到目的的一小步”，更像是一种process。Ron举的例子：
i need to get a new pair of shoes for running.
get a new pair of shoes只不过是我为了running这样一个目标做出的一步，我可能还需要买新衣服，还要吃兴奋剂什么的其他步骤。

-- by 会员 teddybearj4 (2012/4/28 20:33:01)

teddybearj4

呵~我本来也是属于始终没弄清to do和for doing的那种，不过看完了Ron的解释，再看baby姐的详细分析之后就好清楚了。不知道zhongshanlh童鞋懂了没？我也来说说我的看法吧。

你问的那个adv. modifer什么的理解着好复杂，按baby姐分析的，其实都是用这两个的意思就解决了。
1、to do是表示“即时的目的”，更像是一种action。Ron举的例子里：
I need to get a new pair of shoes to run.
get a new pair of shoes就是达到to run的直接手段和方法。我穿上新鞋是为了马上就可以跑了。
2、for doing是表示“达到目的的一小步”，更像是一种process。Ron举的例子：
i need to get a new pair of shoes for running.
get a new pair of shoes只不过是我为了running这样一个目标做出的一步，我可能还需要买新衣服，还要吃兴奋剂什么的其他步骤。

zhongshanlh

让我融会贯通一些，，，目前感觉略乱。。

If you pool all the related questions together, you can see that all these questions share the same concept. No disagreement.

-------
on the other hand, the context of OG12 #15 (which i'm not allowed to reproduce here) doesn't work with both expressions.

in that problem, the context is “to take charge of x” vs. “for taking charge of x”.
note that “taking charge of something” is NOT an ongoing process or general procedure -- it's a specific thing, that happens at a specific point in time, and either needs to be done or doesn't need to be done.  it's sort of like succeeding to the presidency, or turning 18, or other such things that happen at a single point in time.
given that context, we must be talking about something that needs to be done -- a remote purpose.  so, in the OG example, you need "to take charge" and not "for taking charge".

-by Ron   http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143-15.html?sid=06147c953827cefeeb029c35ae0ac108


In the Study Hall, "My plan for making money is to sell my clothes."

"to sell my clothes"    - this is a specific thing, that happens at a specific point in time, and either needs to be done or doesn't need to be done
It's like "to look at the simple problem" - a one-time action
Therefore, we say "to sell my clothes, not "selling my clothes".
Here we say "to take charge", not "for taking charge", because "take charge" is an instant action.


On the other hand,
"my plan for making money" "begin studying the Native American poetry" "begin studying permutation and combination"
These are events that span for some length of time.
(You can simply draw the time axis, and draw the event on the axis. The event is not a time point, but a block on the time axis.)

yeap, I scanned that thread yesterday.however, i am still quite confused about the question.
1. i haven't completely understood what did Ron mean by saying “for + verbing” conveys the idea that the action is, in some generic way, oriented toward the process of “verbing”. ".
i think that in the sentence he showed--"i need to get a new pair of shoes for running ",here,the preposition phrase"for running " is used to describe the characteristic of the shoes(more general,i think i may regard it as a noun modifier),because he said"running shoes = shoes whose purpose is oriented toward the general process of running".
and in the sentence"i need to get a new pair of shoes to run",i think i could regard the phrase"to run" as adverbial modifier to describe the whole preceding clause/action, and it delivers the purpose of the action.
so plz point out the mistake i made...
2. the second problem is that Ron said we have to choose "to take charge of" because the action is not an ongoing process...
3.i find what Ron said in the thread you give me about the differences between the "for VERBING" and "to VERB" is different  from what he said in the study hall when he  tries to explain the the "plan for" and "plan to do". I got really confused...

http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143.html

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/4/26 4:33:22)

-- by 会员 zhongshanlh (2012/4/26 9:12:38)

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/4/26 9:30:45)

babybearmm

If you pool all the related questions together, you can see that all these questions share the same concept. No disagreement.

-------
on the other hand, the context of OG12 #15 (which i'm not allowed to reproduce here) doesn't work with both expressions.

in that problem, the context is “to take charge of x” vs. “for taking charge of x”.
note that “taking charge of something” is NOT an ongoing process or general procedure -- it's a specific thing, that happens at a specific point in time, and either needs to be done or doesn't need to be done.  it's sort of like succeeding to the presidency, or turning 18, or other such things that happen at a single point in time.
given that context, we must be talking about something that needs to be done -- a remote purpose.  so, in the OG example, you need "to take charge" and not "for taking charge".

-by Ron   http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143-15.html?sid=06147c953827cefeeb029c35ae0ac108


In the Study Hall, "My plan for making money is to sell my clothes."

"to sell my clothes"    - this is a specific thing, that happens at a specific point in time, and either needs to be done or doesn't need to be done
It's like "to look at the simple problem" - a one-time action
Therefore, we say "to sell my clothes, not "selling my clothes".
Here we say "to take charge", not "for taking charge", because "take charge" is an instant action.


On the other hand,
"my plan for making money" "begin studying the Native American poetry" "begin studying permutation and combination"
These are events that span for some length of time.
(You can simply draw the time axis, and draw the event on the axis. The event is not a time point, but a block on the time axis.)

yeap, I scanned that thread yesterday.however, i am still quite confused about the question.
1. i haven't completely understood what did Ron mean by saying “for + verbing” conveys the idea that the action is, in some generic way, oriented toward the process of “verbing”. ".
i think that in the sentence he showed--"i need to get a new pair of shoes for running ",here,the preposition phrase"for running " is used to describe the characteristic of the shoes(more general,i think i may regard it as a noun modifier),because he said"running shoes = shoes whose purpose is oriented toward the general process of running".
and in the sentence"i need to get a new pair of shoes to run",i think i could regard the phrase"to run" as adverbial modifier to describe the whole preceding clause/action, and it delivers the purpose of the action.
so plz point out the mistake i made...
2. the second problem is that Ron said we have to choose "to take charge of" because the action is not an ongoing process...
3.i find what Ron said in the thread you give me about the differences between the "for VERBING" and "to VERB" is different  from what he said in the study hall when he  tries to explain the the "plan for" and "plan to do". I got really confused...

http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143.html

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/4/26 4:33:22)

-- by 会员 zhongshanlh (2012/4/26 9:12:38)

zhongshanlh

对于最后一个问题——在这个题目中后面to take charge of 的主语问题，我看到Ron说我们只要知道这个to take charge of是adverbial modifier，并且描述修饰的是preceding
clause/action就够了...不需要我们分辨到底是谁时precise subject...
这道题目中我个人紧紧是通过语义判断这个take charge of 应当描述的是前面这个organization的。。。

http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143.html

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/4/26 4:33:22)

zhongshanlh

yeap, I scanned that thread yesterday.however, i am still quite confused about the question.
1. i haven't completely understood what did Ron mean by saying “for + verbing” conveys the idea that the action is, in some generic way, oriented toward the process of “verbing”. ".
i think that in the sentence he showed--"i need to get a new pair of shoes for running ",here,the preposition phrase"for running " is used to describe the characteristic of the shoes(more general,i think i may regard it as a noun modifier),because he said"running shoes = shoes whose purpose is oriented toward the general process of running".
and in the sentence"i need to get a new pair of shoes to run",i think i could regard the phrase"to run" as adverbial modifier to describe the whole preceding clause/action, and it delivers the purpose of the action.
so plz point out the mistake i made...
2. the second problem is that Ron said we have to choose "to take charge of" because the action is not an ongoing process...
3.i find what Ron said in the thread you give me about the differences between the "for VERBING" and "to VERB" is different  from what he said in the study hall when he  tries to explain the the "plan for" and "plan to do". I got really confused...

http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143.html

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/4/26 4:33:22)

babybearmm

http://www.beatthegmat.com/noting-that-the-company-s-network-is-vulnerable-t108143.html

zhongshanlh

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