再次呼唤斑竹，关于Ron关于跳跃修饰的看法和自已疑问

leonnong

首先看OG106
Marconi's conception of the radio was as a substitute for the telephone, a tool for private conversation: instead, it is precisely the opposite, a tool for communicating with a large, public audience.

答案为C ： Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for privateconversationthat could substitute for thetelephone; instead, it has become
一个同学问Ron:
for private conversation that could substitute for telephone. Apparently, "that could substitute for telephone" is an attribute clause that modify conversation since almost all attribute clauses always modify the closest noun. For instance, Bears eat berries that are sweet. (berries are sweet not bears). The questions is trying to say the tool substitute for telephone not private conversation.

Ron的回答：
you can string two modifiers along after a noun without a problem.the problem arises when something other than another modifier comes between a modifier and its noun. this is what your example does, but please note that the following sentence is fine:

Bears eat berries from Bavaria that are sweet.
红色句子说在名词后面可以连续接两个修饰它的成分，所以在106题，that后面的成分跳跃修饰了radio。蓝色句子大家是怎么理解的呢？？


然后再看OG118题：
The World Wildlife Fund has declared that global
warming,a phenomenon most scientistsagree to be
caused by human beings in burning fossil fuels, will
create havoc among migratory birds by altering the
environment in ways harmful to their habitats.

(A)a phenomenon most scientists agree to be
caused by human beings in burning fossil fuels,

(B)a phenomenon most scientists agree that is
caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings,

(C)a phenomenon that most scientists agree is
caused by human beings' burning of fossil fuels,

(D)which most scientists agree on as a phenomenon
caused by human beings who burn fossil fuels,

(E)which most scientists agree to be a
phenomenon caused by fossil fuels burned by
human beings,

OA is C.没问题，但是我的问题的B：a phenomenon most scientists agree that is
caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings,
"most scientists agree"这个成分修饰phenomenon。“that is
caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings”不能为做agree的宾语从句，因为逻辑上就说不通，而很显然它也是修饰phenomenon的！那就满足了Ron说的you can string two modifiers along after a noun without a problem条件吗？句子应该没问题呀~然是OG的解释是：That is should immediately follow
phenomenon, not agree.
我就有点想不通了！希望斑竹和大牛们讨论讨论~谢谢啦

luckyjessica

真的是豁然开朗啊！！！！

ainiAnnie

bingo~

Roxas605

恩，困扰了很久的问题终于明白啦~非常感谢！
不过还是有一个小小的疑问，most scientists agree是一个什么样的成分作为adv modifier呢？
会是什么状语从句么？

-- by 会员 alexisqyj (2012/3/25 15:01:43)

Prep2008里面有讲：叫做嵌入式关系分句

详见：
关于嵌入式关系分句—by tankobe：

OG12-118. The world wildlife fund has declared that global warming, a phenomenon most scientsts agree to be caused by human begings in burning fossil fuels, will create havoc among migratory birds by altering the enviroment in ways harmful to their habitats.
a) A phenomenon most scientists agree to be caused by human beings in burning fossil fuels,
b) a phenomenon most scientists agree that is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings,
c) a phenomenon that most scientists agree is caused by human beings' burning of fossil fuels
d) which most scientists agree on as phenomenon caused by human beings who burn fossil fuels,
e) which most scientsts agree to be a phenomenon caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings
查了很多贴（国内和国外），对C选项的解释都是半斤八两，看得我一头雾水！（为什么一个定语从句里有两个动词agree和is）
一个普遍的误读是：说most scientists agree 是插入语，虽然是没加逗号！（此解释绝对是误人子弟！！！）
今天我翻遍章振邦的《新编英语语法》（CD上有下载），在1193—1395页赫然发现一个语法词条——嵌入式关系分句，详解如下：
“有一种关系分句（即定语从句），它既是先行项的后置修饰语（即定语），同时又是另外一个分句结构的宾语（即宾语从句）”此分句结构就被嵌入在定语从句中，即嵌入式关系分句。
该书举例：In his breast-pocket he had a patch of scarlet, which i suppose was the paper cap serving as a handkerchief.
注意两点：

1）从句which was the paper cap serving as a handkerchief 首先是 patch of scarlet的定语从句。        

2）从句which（patch of scarlet） was the paper cap serving as a handkerchief 也是i suppose 的宾语从句，即I suppose （that）the patch of scarlet was the paper cap serving as a handkerchief 。

综上所述，当一个定语从句同时是另一个主谓结构的宾语从句是，就可以写为嵌入式关系分句。

babybearmm

you're welcome~great questions! Thanks.

1. 不能这么理解。关键问题就是ls同学说的，"most scientists agree"说的是什么？
这么理解，逻辑填空题如下：
Most scientists agree _____.
你填"phenomenon"，还是填"phenomenon is caused by ...."?
显然填后者，对吧。后者才是科学家达成共识的内容，而非"phenomenon"本身。

你一直理解为"most scientists agree"是noun modifier，修饰phenomenon——这是错误的根源。
"most scientists agree"根本就不是noun modifier，而是修饰后面那个从句的。
所以，就不能插在noun和that中间。（Ron说过，能插在中间的，只能是noun modifier）

换句话说，你单独提拉出来的"phenomenon (that) most scientists agree"，这本身就不make logical sense!

1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotionalreactionsin an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of immigration that have swept through history

请注意，这句话，that指代"emotionalreactionsin an individual"
emotionalreactionsin an individual整个作为一个noun phrase，核心名词是reactions, in an individual作为noun modifier修饰核心名词reactions
这就符合Ron所说的，只有修饰那个核心名词的noun modifier，才允许插在名词和that之间。

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？
不全对。“介词短语”可以是noun modifier，也可以是adverbial modifier。
举个例子：
I read a book by J.K.Rowling.   这里by J.K.Rowling是noun modifier，修饰book
I read a book by subvocalization.    这里by subvocalization是adverbial modifier，修饰I read a book

在你给的上面那个例子里，in an individual是noun modifier，所以才能插入

baby!我理解你的意思，但是我还有三个问题.
问题1：但是为什么不可以这样子理解呢？（先不谈最后的逻辑问题，仅仅说这个that的修饰）"a phenomenon (that)most scientists agreethat is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings"相当于把that省略了，因为在第一个that从句中phenomenon做agree的宾语，然后第二个that也是修饰phenomenon！整句话的意思可以这样说，（大部分科学家认可的）这个现象是（由人类使用化石燃料导致的。）两个都是修饰phenomenon！就像RON说的you can string two modifiers along after a noun without a problem！！
问题2：但是他第二句话就是我画蓝线的话the problem arises when something other than another modifier comes between a modifier and its noun.这句话里的something是指noun modifier对吗？意思是除了noun modifier以外的modifiers夹在noun和另外一个modifer之间都会产生问题对吗？如果是的话，问题1我就知道为什么不行了。
问题3：RON说除了noun modifier以外的modifier都不可以这样修饰，但是OG里不是经常出现介词短语夹在名词和从句之间吗？例如：
1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an anduvidual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of imgration that have swept through history

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？希望baby帮分析分析！万分感谢

-- by 会员 leonnong (2012/3/24 22:38:10)

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/3/25 12:06:48)

baby总是分析得那么面面俱到，不由的感慨这就是差距呀~~再次谢谢baby姐~

-- by 会员 leonnong (2012/3/25 21:32:55)

babybearmm

我就理解为插入成分，我说不出叫做什么语法术语（好在gmat也不考naming the grammatical terms）。既然是插入成分，做SC的时候就把它去掉，不影响咱的理解。

类似题目链接：
The electronics company has unveiled what it claims to be the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, the length of which is that of a hand-held computer, and it weighs less than 11 ounces.

A.to be the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, the length of which is that of a handheld computer, and it weighs
B.to be the smallest network digital camcorder in the world, which is as long as a handheld computer, weighing
C.is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world, which is as long as a handheld computer, and it weighs
D.is the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, which is as long as a handheld computer and weighs
E.is the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, the length of which is that of a handheld computer, weighing    

恩，困扰了很久的问题终于明白啦~非常感谢！
不过还是有一个小小的疑问，most scientists agree是一个什么样的成分作为adv modifier呢？
会是什么状语从句么？

-- by 会员 alexisqyj (2012/3/25 15:01:43)

leonnong

1. 不能这么理解。关键问题就是ls同学说的，"most scientists agree"说的是什么？
这么理解，逻辑填空题如下：
Most scientists agree _____.
你填"phenomenon"，还是填"phenomenon is caused by ...."?
显然填后者，对吧。后者才是科学家达成共识的内容，而非"phenomenon"本身。

你一直理解为"most scientists agree"是noun modifier，修饰phenomenon——这是错误的根源。
"most scientists agree"根本就不是noun modifier，而是修饰后面那个从句的。
所以，就不能插在noun和that中间。（Ron说过，能插在中间的，只能是noun modifier）

换句话说，你单独提拉出来的"phenomenon (that) most scientists agree"，这本身就不make logical sense!

1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotionalreactionsin an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of immigration that have swept through history

请注意，这句话，that指代"emotionalreactionsin an individual"
emotionalreactionsin an individual整个作为一个noun phrase，核心名词是reactions, in an individual作为noun modifier修饰核心名词reactions
这就符合Ron所说的，只有修饰那个核心名词的noun modifier，才允许插在名词和that之间。

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？
不全对。“介词短语”可以是noun modifier，也可以是adverbial modifier。
举个例子：
I read a book by J.K.Rowling.   这里by J.K.Rowling是noun modifier，修饰book
I read a book by subvocalization.    这里by subvocalization是adverbial modifier，修饰I read a book

在你给的上面那个例子里，in an individual是noun modifier，所以才能插入

baby!我理解你的意思，但是我还有三个问题.
问题1：但是为什么不可以这样子理解呢？（先不谈最后的逻辑问题，仅仅说这个that的修饰）"a phenomenon (that)most scientists agreethat is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings"相当于把that省略了，因为在第一个that从句中phenomenon做agree的宾语，然后第二个that也是修饰phenomenon！整句话的意思可以这样说，（大部分科学家认可的）这个现象是（由人类使用化石燃料导致的。）两个都是修饰phenomenon！就像RON说的you can string two modifiers along after a noun without a problem！！
问题2：但是他第二句话就是我画蓝线的话the problem arises when something other than another modifier comes between a modifier and its noun.这句话里的something是指noun modifier对吗？意思是除了noun modifier以外的modifiers夹在noun和另外一个modifer之间都会产生问题对吗？如果是的话，问题1我就知道为什么不行了。
问题3：RON说除了noun modifier以外的modifier都不可以这样修饰，但是OG里不是经常出现介词短语夹在名词和从句之间吗？例如：
1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an anduvidual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of imgration that have swept through history

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？希望baby帮分析分析！万分感谢

-- by 会员 leonnong (2012/3/24 22:38:10)

-- by 会员 babybearmm (2012/3/25 12:06:48)

baby总是分析得那么面面俱到，不由的感慨这就是差距呀~~再次谢谢baby姐~

alexisqyj

恩，困扰了很久的问题终于明白啦~非常感谢！
不过还是有一个小小的疑问，most scientists agree是一个什么样的成分作为adv modifier呢？
会是什么状语从句么？

alexisqyj

恩，困扰了很久的问题终于明白啦~非常感谢！
不过还是有一个小小的疑问，most scientists agree是一个什么样的成分作为adv modifier呢？
会是什么状语从句么？

babybearmm

1. 不能这么理解。关键问题就是ls同学说的，"most scientists agree"说的是什么？
这么理解，逻辑填空题如下：
Most scientists agree _____.
你填"phenomenon"，还是填"phenomenon is caused by ...."?
显然填后者，对吧。后者才是科学家达成共识的内容，而非"phenomenon"本身。

你一直理解为"most scientists agree"是noun modifier，修饰phenomenon——这是错误的根源。
"most scientists agree"根本就不是noun modifier，而是修饰后面那个从句的。
所以，就不能插在noun和that中间。（Ron说过，能插在中间的，只能是noun modifier）

换句话说，你单独提拉出来的"phenomenon (that) most scientists agree"，这本身就不make logical sense!

1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of immigration that have swept through history

请注意，这句话，that指代"emotional reactions in an individual"
emotional reactions in an individual整个作为一个noun phrase，核心名词是reactions, in an individual作为noun modifier修饰核心名词reactions
这就符合Ron所说的，只有修饰那个核心名词的noun modifier，才允许插在名词和that之间。

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？
不全对。“介词短语”可以是noun modifier，也可以是adverbial modifier。
举个例子：
I read a book by J.K.Rowling.   这里by J.K.Rowling是noun modifier，修饰book
I read a book by subvocalization.    这里by subvocalization是adverbial modifier，修饰I read a book

在你给的上面那个例子里，in an individual是noun modifier，所以才能插入

baby!我理解你的意思，但是我还有三个问题.
问题1：但是为什么不可以这样子理解呢？（先不谈最后的逻辑问题，仅仅说这个that的修饰）"a phenomenon (that)most scientists agreethat is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings"相当于把that省略了，因为在第一个that从句中phenomenon做agree的宾语，然后第二个that也是修饰phenomenon！整句话的意思可以这样说，（大部分科学家认可的）这个现象是（由人类使用化石燃料导致的。）两个都是修饰phenomenon！就像RON说的you can string two modifiers along after a noun without a problem！！
问题2：但是他第二句话就是我画蓝线的话the problem arises when something other than another modifier comes between a modifier and its noun.这句话里的something是指noun modifier对吗？意思是除了noun modifier以外的modifiers夹在noun和另外一个modifer之间都会产生问题对吗？如果是的话，问题1我就知道为什么不行了。
问题3：RON说除了noun modifier以外的modifier都不可以这样修饰，但是OG里不是经常出现介词短语夹在名词和从句之间吗？例如：
1.Of all the  The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an anduvidual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.vast tides of imgration that have swept through history

我想说的是：应该是只有名词性修饰和介词短语可以夹在noun和从句之间。对么？希望baby帮分析分析！万分感谢

-- by 会员 leonnong (2012/3/24 22:38:10)