请教一题

bingc2012 · 发表于 2014-5-11 20:21:01

A starwill compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole afterit passes through a red giant stage, depending on mass.

(A) Astar will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black holeafter it passes through a red giant stage, depending on mass.

(B) Afterpassing through a red giant stage, depending on its mass, a star will compressitself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.

(C) Afterpassing through a red giant stage, a star’s mass will determine if itcompresses itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.

(D) Massdetermines whether a star, after passing through the red giant stage, willcompress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.（D）

(E) Themass of a star, after passing through the red giant stage, will determinewhether it compresses itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a blackhole.

我选的答案是B，正确答案是D，但是不大能够接受B错，求指教！

crazysin · 发表于 2014-5-11 23:30:32

A star will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole after it passes through a red giant stage, depending on mass.
(A) A star will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole after it passes through a red giant stage, depending on mass.

(B) After passing through a red giant stage, depending on its mass, a star will compressitself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.

(C) After passing through a red giant stage, a star’s mass will determine if it compresses itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.

(D) Mass determines whether a star, after passing through the red giant stage, will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.

(E) The mass of a star, after passing through the red giant stage, will determine whether it compresses itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a blackhole.

brfmzbjz · 发表于 2014-5-16 09:21:36

B选项里 depengding on its mass 变成修饰a star 了，与原意不符

alzn2765 · 发表于 2014-5-16 10:00:44

这题需要有一个背景知识：
Star一般指能发光的“星星”，也就是恒星。恒星一般是先变为red giant，然后根据其质量决定它变成白矮星，neutron star还是黑洞。也就是说，不管什么质量的恒星，都要“必经”red giant这个阶段。

回头再看选项。
A选项的错误是depending on mass放在整句最末尾，我们没办法判定depending on mass是修饰after it passes through a red giant stage的（这个与事实相违背），还是修饰整句的。
B选项 depending on its mass 夹在中间，与“夹心修饰”类似， depending on its mass可以向前修饰After passing through a red giant stage（这个与事实相违背），也可以向后修饰a star will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.（这个正确）。
C选项错误很明显，a star’s mass 变成passing through a red giant stage的主语了，逻辑意思错误。
D逻辑意思表达最清楚：after passing through the red giant stage做插入语，修饰a star。整句的主语是Mass：恒星的质量决定其在经过red giant阶段之后把自己压缩成白矮星，neutron star还是黑洞。哪个过程先，那个过程后很明显。
E错误与C相同，the mass of a star 变成passing through a red giant stage的主语了，逻辑意思错误。

alzn2765 · 发表于 2014-5-16 10:09:46

brfmzbjz 发表于 2014-5-16 09:21
B选项里 depengding on its mass 变成修饰a star 了，与原意不符

你理解错了。
关于恒星的变化，GMAC应该是当作一个“常识”来处理的。
我们中国学生课业负担太重了，没时间，可能家里也没经济能力支持我们“玩”天文。
美国的学生，基本小学时候家长就会给他们买一个天文望远镜，鼓励他们了解天文知识（你回想一下看过的美国电影中，孩子的房间里是不是很多都有小型的天文望远镜？）。所以，GMAC把恒星的变化当成了一个任何人都应该知道的“常识”，所以A选项表达的逻辑意思不管怎么理解都是错误的，但GMAC认为考生至少应该知道这个“常识”。
这个可能类似于，任何考GMAT的中国学生都知道水电解生成氧气和氢气，但是美国的SB学生真不知道。。。

brfmzbjz · 发表于 2014-5-16 11:19:40

alzn2765 发表于 2014-5-16 10:09
你理解错了。
关于恒星的变化，GMAC应该是当作一个“常识”来处理的。
我们中国学生课业负担太重了，没时 ...

1. After xxx 是个状语，v-ing 不可能向前修饰它；
2. v-ing, SVO 的情况， v-ing 只可能做定语修饰S，不可能修饰SVO
Depending on xxx 修饰 a star, 肯定是不符合原意的。

GMAT不会要求任何知识背景。你所说的天文内容，绝对超出了GMAT所要求的“常识”。

alzn2765 · 发表于 2014-5-16 12:56:55

brfmzbjz 发表于 2014-5-16 11:19
1. After xxx 是个状语，v-ing 不可能向前修饰它；
2. v-ing, SVO 的情况， v-ing 只可能做定语修饰S，不 ...

讨论。
你的第一点“ After xxx 是个状语，v-ing 不可能向前修饰它”这个我不认同。因为ving也是状语，表伴随状态。状语是修饰动词的，看ving状语结构能不能修饰After passing through a red giant stage要看这里面有没有动词，有 pass。可能这里用depending on its mass有点儿难以理解，我们换一个简单一点儿的，quickly.
整句变为After passing through a red giant stage, quickly, a star will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.你说quickly能不能向前修饰 passing？能不能向后修饰compress？换成depending on its mass也是一个道理，只不过多了一个逻辑主语的问题，这道题刚好After passing through a red giant stage省略的主语就是a star，而depending on its mass的逻辑主语也是a star。所以歧义就产生了：
depending on its mass作为伴随状语，可以向前修饰After passing through a red giant stage中的pass（这个与事实相违背），也可以向后修饰a star will compress itself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.中的compress（这个正确）。我之前没说是修饰整句中的谓语动词的出发点是我以为大家都知道depending on its mass是状语，状语修饰动词是不需要特殊强调的。

你说B中“depengding on its mass 变成修饰a star 了”是不正确的：他是夹心修饰，前向向后都可以修饰。“与原意不符”也是不正确的，因为正确的意思就是“恒星一般是先变为red giant，然后根据其质量决定它变成白矮星，neutron star还是黑洞。也就是说，不管什么质量的恒星，都要“必经”red giant这个阶段。”也就是说“原意”想正确表达的就是“depending on its mass, a star will compressitself into a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole.”。这个通过正确选项D的逻辑意思可以得到佐证。

你的第二点：v-ing, SVO 的情况， v-ing 只可能做定语修饰S，不可能修饰SVO。这个也错了。v-ing, SVO 的情况， v-ing 只可能做伴随状语修饰V。如果想要v-ing做定语修饰S,则句子结构需要变为S v-ing VO.

最后你说的：“GMAT不会要求任何知识背景。你所说的天文内容，绝对超出了GMAT所要求的“常识”。”我也不认同。我原先也天真的以为GMAC说的是真话，但是做了一段时间题，我发现我错了。GMAC的“常识”的出发点是美国人的“常识”，而不是地球人的“常识”。
以下一道题，及OG的解释就是最好的证明：
A 1972 agreementbetween Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalitieshad been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amountof phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

(B) reduced thephosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping

(C) reduces thephosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump

(D) reduced the amount ofphosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump

(E) reduces the amountof phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

OG中的解释是Since the dumping continued after the date of the agreement, the past perfect verb had been allowed should instead be the present are allowed
很多中国学生，包括我自己选的都是A。因为我们是按照“时间提示”来做的。用过去完成时，没问题。
这道题我当时也做错了，后来看了新东方OG13的讲解。如果用had been allowed就是说：1972年以后就不allow了。但事实是一直到现在还允许倒，只是少了，所以不能用过去完成时。
市民可以将物质倒入水里这个行为就没停过，一直在倒。
这道题细说其实违反了GMAT对于“解答问题无需专业背景知识，只需根据语义和逻辑判读”的说辞。
这道题，如果不是美国学生，比如你和我，我们中国学生，哪里会知道“其实政府现在还允许市民往五大湖里面倒磷”这件事？我们只能根据语义上的暗示，按照时态来做，结果就是错的。这道题偏向了美国考生，对中国学生不公。
这就是一个典型的美国“常识”的例子，GMAC的大爷大妈们觉得“政府现在还允许市民往五大湖里面倒磷”是个“常识”，他们可以用这个来排除选项。我们中国学生不是生在美国，真不知道。

如果你了解美国人，你就应该知道什么“超级以自我为中心”，美国人认为他们应该知道的知识，地球人都应该知道，他们不知道的知识，地球人应该都不知道。GMAC的大爷大妈也是山姆大叔教育出来的，他们对“常识”的理解，就是美国人的“常识”。

讨论，讨论。

brfmzbjz · 发表于 2014-5-16 14:51:41

alzn2765 发表于 2014-5-16 12:56
讨论。
你的第一点“ After xxx 是个状语，v-ing 不可能向前修饰它”这个我不认同。因为ving也是状语，表 ...

1. You were right on this one.
From Manhattan:
'depending on its mass' is clearly supposed to what the star is doing, but, in choice b, it could technically also refer to passing through a red giant stage. (in other words, one could read the sentence as though the star's passing through a red giant stage depends upon the star's mass).

2. I suppose you were wrong on this one.
关于V-ing, S http://forum.chasedream.com/thread-650744-2-1.html
baby姐的解释
V-ing ..., S+V+O 句首的 "v-ing...," 就是作为noun modifier，修饰临近noun，也就是subject
比如ls有位同学举的这个例子，
OG verbal 2nd 113
In A.D. 391. resulting from the destruction of the largest library of the ancient world at Alexandria, later generations lost all but the Iliad and Odyssey among Greek epics, most of the poetry of Pindar and Sappho, and dozens of plays by Aeschylus and Euripides.
就是resulting from the destruction of the largest library of the ancient world at Alexandria, 修饰接下来的主语later generations

S, v-ing, VO, from PREP2008语法笔记 207
关于夹心修饰 (by aeoluseros)：
所以歧义修饰，是因为引发了不同的理解，而并不是语法上是否会有不同的修饰，所谓夹心修饰也是这个原则。很多人对“夹心修饰”都有过一个误解，认为S, v-ing, V. + O.结构中，v-ing既可以往前修饰S，也可以往后修饰V就是夹心，而实际上夹心并不是“可以往前修饰S，也可以往后修饰V” 。在S, v-ing, V. + O.这样的表达中，v-ing约定俗成只伴随修饰动词，见下例：
prep 2-104 The yield per acre of coffee berries varies enormously, because a single tree, depending on its size and on climate and altitude, is able to produce enough berries to make between one and twelve pounds of dried beans a year.
这个句子里depending不能改为dependent，因为depending和dependent的区别在于，前者伴随修饰谓语动词is able to produce，后者则是修饰名词single tree，会造成逻辑上不对 —— “一棵树依靠它的size”。

我说的与原意不符是指，原意为“the star will compress itself into XXX"这件事depends on the mass, 而不应该指"the star" depends on its mass. B中depending on XXX 作为定语修饰star的话，就会产生这种错误。(根据前面baby姐的解释，V-ing, SVO 里v-ing做定语而非状语）

3.You completely misread the question.
from manhattan (try not use those explaination from XDF...)
http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/og-sc-62-t580.html

Past perfect is used to indicate something that happened before something else - and because we are only given one sentence on SC, that other thing also needs to be in this sentence.

It might seem like we are saying "they used to be allowed to dump X amount and now they can dump Y amount" - two different things, right? But the sentence doesn't actually spell that out. It just mentions the one event. We don't have a second event or activity that occurs after... so we can't use past perfect.

The OG explanation tells you that present tense ("are") is appropriate to use here because it tells us that the state of affairs is still true today. And, yes, that's true... but the real way we know this is true is because we can find errors in the other choices, including A, so we know D must be right by default.

It is nonsensical to believe that a past agreement could reduce the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump, since the dumping had already taken place. In other words, it is not possible to retroactively reduce the amount of dumping.

However, a similar sentence with a different meaning could definitely use the past perfect. For example, it would be grammatically proper to state A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States fined the Canadians for the amount of phosphate that municipalities had dumped into the Great Lakes. . In this case, there are two distinct past events: the fine and the dumping. To indicate that the dumping preceded the fine, the past perfect is perfectly appropriate!
以上，不是知识的问题，是逻辑的问题。

In other words, are you familiar with the China policy of dumping phosphates into 鄱阳湖 or 渤海? Frankly speaking, I am not, and will never be. And I also strongly believe that those US students who are crystal clear about the so-called policy are probably minority.

GMAT is a test for students worldwide and it runs successfully for so many years. Give it some credits

alzn2765 · 发表于 2014-5-16 17:45:16

brfmzbjz 发表于 2014-5-16 14:51
1. You were right on this one.
From Manhattan:
'depending on its mass' is clearly supposed to wha ...

第一点就不讨论了，已经达成共识。

第二点，我看到你回复了这个帖子（V-ING用法总结）：
http://forum.chasedream.com/thread-885576-1-1.html
这个帖子中cdbgin009给出了这样的解答：
1. VC在句首：必修饰主语名词
VC，SVO；此时，不论把VC当做名词的修饰成分（就近修饰），还是动词的修饰成分（修饰主语），VC一定是修饰主语的，且两种情况下，主语都是VC所代表动作的发出者；所以，一定要确保主语在逻辑上是可以作为这个动作发出者的。

我也给出了我自己的意见：
这一点我觉得：如果按照这样说的话，VC做定语和做状语没区别了：主语都是VC的逻辑主语，意思也差不多：VC着的S做xxxx vs. S VC着做xxxx，语义是一样的
我觉得不如把VC，SVO和SVO,VC统一起来，都当作状语，这样也容易记忆。

比如ls有位同学举的这个例子，
OG verbal 2nd 113
In A.D. 391. resulting from the destruction of the largest library of the ancient world at Alexandria, later generations lost all but the Iliad and Odyssey among Greek epics, most of the poetry of Pindar and Sappho, and dozens of plays by Aeschylus and Euripides.

resulting from the destruction of the largest library of the ancient world at Alexandria不管翻译成定语还是状语，句子的意思都是一样的。
做定语：（起因于亚历山大的古代最大的图书馆被毁的）后代失去了全部除了 Iliad and Odyssey之外的希腊史诗
做状语：后代随着（起因于亚历山大的古代最大的图书馆被毁）失去了全部除了 Iliad and Odyssey之外的希腊史诗

逻辑意思都是一样的。这个例子的定语太长了，翻译成中文有点儿别扭，换个短的更明显。VC着的S做xxxx vs. S VC着做xxxx
你随便看看我说的有没有道理。

至于from PREP2008语法笔记 207
关于夹心修饰 (by aeoluseros)中给出的“夹心修饰”的例子的结构（S, v-ing, V. + O.这样的表达中，v-ing约定俗成只伴随修饰动词）与本题（条件状语，v+ing, S V O）完全不同（看S的位置），没有可比性。我只是借用了“夹心修饰”这个名词，并不特指by aeoluseros给出的结构。

你说的：
我说的与原意不符是指，原意为“the star will compress itself into XXX"这件事depends on the mass, 而不应该指"the star" depends on its mass. B中depending on XXX 作为定语修饰star的话，就会产生这种错误。
我答：
你的理解还是基于depending on its mass做定语这个基础，而我的观点就是depending on its mass做的是状语。我感觉定语用一个“动作”修饰名词，然手说这个名词做了什么，不如用一个动作“伴随”另一个动作（这相当于是两个动作）表达的意思准确，毕竟句子中最重要的信息是谓语动词。你觉得“一个什么样的我与你探讨OG题”和“我已一种什么样的状态与你探讨OG题”那个信息更符合英语看重“谓语”的特点？

至于排污那个题的解释我不认同，解释的太牵强了。如果他用这个理解做OG题，这个题他可以做对，其他很多题都会做错。他好像说的有逻辑，但是这是为这道特定的题“订制”的逻辑，属于看了答案想解释的做法，这个逻辑即使可以“完美”的应用在这道题上，在其他更多的题上，这个逻辑都是行不通的。

我外国生活了11年，6年上学，5年工作，对这些人怎么想，怎么做，怎么说太了解了。我没说GMAC不客观，我说的是GMAT的“常识”是根据美国人的常识订制的，这些“常识”大部分是“地球人”的常识：比如地球是圆的，重力向下，但有少部分是美国人的“常识”。他们生在美国，长在美国，如此熟悉这些“常识”，以至于把这些美国人的“常识”当成了“地球人”的“常识”，说白了其实还是“美国中心主义”的外延表现。

bingc2012 · 发表于 2014-5-29 21:31:02

谢谢讨论，收益不少！

请教一题

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