ChaseDream

标题: 请教 GWD 24-8 用which +从句或 with+短语来修饰名词到底有何不同？ [打印本页]

作者: createdream 时间: 2004-10-24 05:26
标题: 请教 GWD 24-8 用which +从句或 with+短语来修饰名词到底有何不同？

24-8 The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

(A) which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell

(B) which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen

(D) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling

(E) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen

ANS：C

任何一题做错我都觉得是我语法上的一个盲点，此题更是如此啊！

D为何错？

(1) C是用which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits, D 是用with + 短语同样作定语修饰profits 。 D似乎更简洁。

(2) after falling 中after 是介词，故无需考虑逻辑主语，我的理解对吗？

请NNS指点！

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-10-24 5:27:49编辑过]

作者: bryan0806 时间: 2004-10-24 16:29
我觉得这题是考时态但我想问为什么要用完成式?

作者: tinayc 时间: 2004-10-25 07:12

以下是引用createdream在2004-10-24 5:26:00的发言：

24-8 The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

(A) which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell

(B) which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen

(D) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling

(E) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen

ANS：C

任何一题做错我都觉得是我语法上的一个盲点，此题更是如此啊！

D为何错？

(1) C是用which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits, D 是用with + 短语同样作定语修饰profits 。 D似乎更简洁。

可是文中有一逗号，就是说要用which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits。

with + 短语放句中修饰其前面的修饰词，中间没有标点。

(2) after falling 中after 是介词，故无需考虑逻辑主语，我的理解对吗？

我认为是对的，此处不会有逻辑主语的歧异

请NNS指点！

作者: LES 时间: 2004-10-25 22:44

1. with放在句末与主句之间有逗号隔开，一般是引导独立主格结构，修饰整个句子或主句的主语。

2.关于时态问题，偶觉得这题来看是选项比较的结果。

一般来讲，一个句子使用一个时态，要么都是现在时(包括一般现在时，现在进行时，现在完成时)，要么都是过去时(包括一般过去时，过去进行时，过去完成时)，例外情况有：

1)　如果动词有自身的时间状语，动词的时态应跟自身的时间状语保持一直；
2) 下列情况要用一般现在时：a. 客观事实；b.政府的决策行为；c. 科研成果，统计资料；d. 直接引用(注意，这里的直接引用不同于偶们以前学的语法－－直接引用要加双引号，即GMAT中的直接引用不加双引号。)

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-10-31 23:38

sorry, LES,

本句有两个时间状语during the first three months 和 over the last two years

我想确认一下，是否由于increase 一定在fall 之后所以决定了从句的主句用现在完成时，可是问题是falling是否也有一直在进行的意味呢

实在抱歉，我对时态总是很迷糊，希望您能在指点一下

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-1 21:11
up

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-1 21:40

I search in google, find one sentence like below, 而且很多商业性的文章都出现过类似的句子

After having fallen sharply over the preceding two years, new orders for capital equipment stabilized and, for some categories, turned up in nominal terms in 2002

but I can not find any sentence like after falling over the last ___Years

还是认为 over the last few years 是完成时的标志

承认C选项which 指代没有问题，可是时态不对呀，前面是现在完成时表示到现在为止都这样，后面是falling，falling 有正在进行的意味，不可能profit同时又升又降吧

还是认为是E，独立主格也可以修饰整个句子呀

作者: joe11 时间: 2004-11-1 21:49

Listen to LES, she's right.

1. 当 with 短语放于句尾时，其逻辑主语不明。既可以修饰主句的主语，也可以解释里其最近的名词。

2. C 中的完成时时根据 during the first 3 months of this year 来确定的，over the last 2 years 仅定义了

fell.

Pay attention the logic and sentence's meaning. Don't fracture the sentence to meaningless grammar parts.

Get to know the sentence First as a whole and Second as a simplified structure.

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-1 23:12

可是问题是profit不可能同时又升又降啊

你真的确定独立主格要求逻辑主语吗

个人认为从逻辑意思上，E更通顺

因为after 后加上现在完成时，其实就是过去完成的意思，而记得白勇的语法书里非常明确地指出

如果是over +the last+时间短语，就是现在完成时标志

况且LES也没有肯定这里有逻辑主语的问题这种说法呀

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-1 23:14

再者 during +the first three months 可不是完成时的标志呀

after having done 在google里比比皆是

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-11-1 23:25:37编辑过]

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-1 23:47

1. Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang

(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging

(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging（D）

(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung

这道题就是一个很好的例子，如果是就近修饰或者说有逻辑主语的问题,那末岂不是树枝长手长脚又或者vistor把手和脚挂起来

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-11-1 23:59:28编辑过]

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-2 00:19

备注

关于独立主格，白勇的语法书里有如下说明with+n+介词短语与主句形成紧密地逻辑关系，起状语作用，表伴随原因，条件，状态等，而一般的独立主格与主句形成松散的逻辑关系，也就是说with型独立主格的与主句的逻辑关系紧一些

可是并不代表，with型独立主格要求逻辑主语

作者: seekmydream 时间: 2004-11-2 01:52

1.首先需要区分的是用which还是with:

which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits, 而with + 短语则修饰主句. 从句子的逻辑意思看, 应用前者.

2.during the first three months of this year 和 over the last two years 都是完成时标志. 在此从句中,前者表示今年开始一直持续到第三个月甚至到说话时为止的动作, 应该用现在完成时. 后者表示过去两年一直持续到去年底为止的动作,是"过去的过去", 如果用句子表达的话, 则用过去完成时; 如果用after, 其后则跟动名词的完成式, 即having fallen. 牛津词典说, after + 动名词等同于完成式的结构. 即: after falling over the last two years = after having fallen over the last two years.

sorry, LES,
本句有两个时间状语during the first three months 和 over the last two years
我想确认一下，是否由于increase 一定在fall 之后所以决定了从句的主句用现在完成时，可是问题是falling是否也有一直在进行的意味呢
实在抱歉，我对时态总是很迷糊，希望您能在指点一下

falling 是动名词而非现在分词, 没有"一直进行"的意思.

作者: seekmydream 时间: 2004-11-2 01:59
斑竹, 我回复的是"请教GWD24-8用+从句或+短语来修饰...", 怎么贴到这来了?

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-2 08:30
thanks, I understand now

作者: stevewu 时间: 2004-11-2 10:01
Now I understand the usage of "after + ving". Thanks seekmydream.

作者: juliaPL 时间: 2004-11-8 04:39

我今天在webmaster的字典里找到这样一些说明

afer

In Irish dialect after is used in a construction to be after doing somthing about whose meaning there seems to have been some confusion. P.W. Jocyce in English As We Speak It in Ireland(1910) explainss it as an idiom by which the Irish get around the perfrect tense-instead of " I have finished my work" they use" I am after finishing my work" Some older American dicitionaries seem to have though it to mean to " to be about to" rather than "to have just done":Gowers( in Fowler1965) notes that some English Novelists have made the same mistake.

这段解释是我很困扰，ETS会用这样一个有争议的说法作为正确答案吗

after falling 我是说包括after 到底是过去完成时，还是现在完成时？如果是我找到的这本字典的意思是现在完成时,那末前后都用现在完成时似乎有问题

seekmydream MM能否再仔细解释一下，另外你的第一个说法有如何解释monkey哪道题呢

不好意思，偶这麽啰嗦，可是我觉得和大家的这些讨论对我帮助很大，马上就要上考场的我需要其他CDer 的帮助

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-11-8 5:14:44编辑过]

作者: mikeleven 时间: 2004-12-8 21:21

副词子句修饰动词，形容词子句修饰名词。

此处with子句若看作形容词子句，修饰的名词只能找上主词the results，所以就不合逻辑。如过看成副词子句修饰动词也不对。

OG那monkey题，with子句是副词子句，修饰的是前面那个分词(动词)。

看不懂我说什么吗?那我也没办法...我们是这样学的...

作者: seekmydream 时间: 2004-12-13 13:48

我今天在webmaster的字典里找到这样一些说明
afer
In Irish dialect after is used in a construction to be after doing somthing about whose meaning there seems to have been some confusion. P.W. Jocyce in English As We Speak It in Ireland(1910) explainss it as an idiom by which the Irish get around the perfrect tense-instead of " I have finished my work" they use" I am after finishing my work" Some older American dicitionaries seem to have though it to mean to " to be about to" rather than "to have just done":Gowers( in Fowler1965) notes that some English Novelists have made the same mistake.
这段解释是我很困扰，ETS会用这样一个有争议的说法作为正确答案吗
after falling 我是说包括after 到底是过去完成时，还是现在完成时？如果是我找到的这本字典的意思是现在完成时,那末前后都用现在完成时似乎有问题

seekmydream MM能否再仔细解释一下，另外你的第一个说法有如何解释monkey哪道题呢
不好意思，偶这麽啰嗦，可是我觉得和大家的这些讨论对我帮助很大，马上就要上考场的我需要其他CDer 的帮助

对不起,很久没跟此帖, 今天碰巧到这来. 不知对JuliaPL mm是否还有用.

monkey 这道题, 后半句讲arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline, 如果用whose, 则是非限定性定语从句就近修饰branches, 如果是with引导的独立主格,修饰主句. 但是所谓的主句是相对的, 在这是指monkey sleeping on the branch 这层意思, 而不是指visitors ...have often look up .. and saw 这个主句.

所以用whose 还是用with 就显而易见了.

作者: hpp920 时间: 2004-12-17 04:17

如果用after, 其后则跟动名词的完成式, 即having fallen. 牛津词典说, after + 动名词等同于完成式的结构. 即: after falling over the last two years = after having fallen over the last two years.

MM的引证验证了我的想法:after having +v-ing: redundant

此外,我认为D中的falling前缺逻辑主语.

[此贴子已经被作者于2004-12-17 4:39:17编辑过]

作者: rings 时间: 2004-12-25 14:38

以下是引用seekmydream在2004-12-13 13:48:00的发言：

助

对不起,很久没跟此帖, 今天碰巧到这来. 不知对JuliaPL mm是否还有用.

所以用whose 还是用with 就显而易见了.

不明白红色部分!为什么说主句是相对的?这里怎么是money sleeping on the branch是主句了?

作者: skyguard2000 时间: 2005-3-18 07:15
我对这道题目有不同的观点：
1、我认为DE错在于DE中的after falling or after havingfallen是状语从句的简写形式，而状语从句只能修饰主谓，不能修饰单独的名词。所以with + n +after(since、although) +从句到哪里都是错的。在OG就有一道是说空气遇到石头发出声音（

，找了半天没有找到）,with stable sth although + 从句就是错误选项。而sth remains stable although + 从句就是对的。
2、during、over在GMAT中不一定是完成时的标志，如OG里的一道，讲几个文化 flourished during还是什么的，反正是一段时间。是否用完成时，用什么时态完全看句中有几个不同的time frame，它们的先后如何。
3、after falling 可以是 after sth have fallen, after sth fell, after sthfall, after sth had fallen的简写形式，不一定就是after sth have fallen。我也不认为afterhaving fallen就一定redundant，这是一个有效性的问题，不一定是题目的考点。
请大家继续讨论。

作者: skyguard2000 时间: 2005-3-18 10:23
补充上面我发的帖子中的第一点：with + n + doing sth + after doing sth。这种形式我觉得应该是对的。

作者: uajasmine 时间: 2005-3-19 06:25
以下是引用createdream在2004-10-24 5:26:00的发言：

24-8 The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

(A) which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell

(B) which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen

Here, which is related to falling, and which refers to profits. Profits can fall, right?
(D) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling

(E) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen

In E, with ...increase after (here, it is the increase) falling, so it is not logical. Right?

ANS：C

任何一题做错我都觉得是我语法上的一个盲点，此题更是如此啊！

D为何错？

(1) C是用which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits, D 是用with + 短语同样作定语修饰profits 。 D似乎更简洁。

可是文中有一逗号，就是说要用which +从句做非限定性定语修饰profits。

with + 短语放句中修饰其前面的修饰词，中间没有标点。

(2) after falling 中after 是介词，故无需考虑逻辑主语，我的理解对吗？

我认为是对的，此处不会有逻辑主语的歧异

作者: melodyji 时间: 2005-6-20 02:20

副词子句修饰动词，形容词子句修饰名词。

看不懂我说什么吗?那我也没办法...我们是这样学的...

can not understand.............

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-6-20 2:20:42编辑过]

作者: hncsxj 时间: 2005-8-15 09:52

我认为the result .... with.....,wordy。此处with有表结果的意思，所以which.

作者: william78 时间: 2005-8-15 13:49

(D) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling

首先，A,B中的it 与前面的profits无法对应，立即排除。

至于争论的C, D。我认为，介词+分词，实际上是相当于一个状语从句，例如新概念4中有一片课文，中有一句话，On turning eagerly to the text, one learns that..........., 实际上相当于是When 引导的一个状语从句，与单纯的分词短语功能和性质是一样的。C项中which分句中的falling是合理的，因为falling动作的发出者是which。而D项中with+名词的结构使得falling无逻辑上的动作发出者。

其次，从并列上来说，C中increase是动词，后面的falling作为分词也是动词性质的。而D中前面用名词的increase，后面用分词的falling，对应的不好。（当然，我认为这不是用来判断对错与否主要原因）

第三，D和E的区别就在于一个是falling, 另一个是having fallen,前面的部分都一样。而我认为falling 和having fallen二者所表达的意思的差别是非常细微的，不会是大是大非的，非此即彼，你死我活的差异。也就是说，如果D的with结构是正确的话，ETS不会将出题点放在这么细微的falling和having fallen 的意思差别的揣摩上来。语法题的出题点一般更倾向于结构上。正是因为D和E的区别太小了，损则俱损，荣则俱荣。而一个问题不能有两个正确的答案，所以只能是二者都错。也就是说D是错的，E就是个陪绑的。

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-8-15 14:01:19编辑过]

作者: sammaijgd 时间: 2005-9-15 16:38

楼上这段解释精辟

作者: Ivanchiang 时间: 2005-9-17 21:02
在(B)選項中(先撇開致命傷it不說)，各位大大會不會覺得前後都是同樣時態(過去完成式)會看不出來有時間先後的毛病?我個人是覺得這個題目的內容裡，after前跟after後時態應該要有個先後，就像....and then...這樣，不知道大家意見如何?

作者: foreinter 时间: 2005-10-5 13:19
不是用increase by five percent吗？C选项没有by,我就是因为这个原因才选了D

作者: yuyingchao 时间: 2005-10-7 01:11

以下是引用foreinter在2005-10-5 13:19:00的发言：
不是用increase by five percent吗？C选项没有by,我就是因为这个原因才选了D

increase five percent 或 increase by five percent 表達應該都可以

--------------------

203. From 1982 to 1987 sales of new small boats increased between five and ten percent annually.

(A) From 1982 to 1987 sales of new small boats increased between five and ten percent annually.

(B) Five to ten percent is the annual increase in sales of new small boats in the years 1982 to 1987.

(D) Annually an increase of five to ten percent has occurred between 1982 and 1987 in the sales of new small boats.（A）

(E) Occurring from 1982 to 1987 was an annual increase of five and ten percent in the sales of new small boats.

23. A Labor Department study states that the numbers of women employed outside the home grew by more than a thirty-five percent increase in the past decade and accounted for more than sixty-two percent of the total growth in the civilian work force.

(A) numbers of women employed outside the home grew by more than a thirty-five percent increase

(B) numbers of women employed outside the home grew more than thirty-five percent

(D) number of women employed outside the home increased by more than thirty-five percent（D）

(E) number of women employed outside the home was raised by more than a thirty-five percent increase

作者: evonneangela 时间: 2005-10-31 13:13

1.profits

2."profits=which", not "results=which"

作者: evonneangela 时间: 2005-10-31 13:15

sorry,the 2 should be:

2."profits=which",not "results with",用with后面就去修饰results啦

作者: puccamummy 时间: 2005-11-8 13:10

以下是引用joe11在2004-11-1 21:49:00的发言：

Listen to LES, she's right.

1. 当 with 短语放于句尾时，其逻辑主语不明。既可以修饰主句的主语，也可以解释里其最近的名词。

我倒认为，用which会指代不清。不知道到底指代主语还是宾语还是整个句子。

而with后面的修饰，肯定是指向主语的。

正是因为这样，才不用with，因为用with就变成 “the results of the cost-cutting measures increased five percent.”

increased five percent 修饰的不是the results of the cost-cutting measures，而是profits.

“profits increased five percent”

大家觉得呢？

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-11-8 13:15:09编辑过]

作者: libbytt 时间: 2005-11-8 21:57

以下是引用puccamummy在2005-11-8 13:10:00的发言：

我倒认为，用which会指代不清。不知道到底指代主语还是宾语还是整个句子。

而with后面的修饰，肯定是指向主语的。

which不能指代前面的整个句子的，OG上说得很明确呀

作者: greenbow43 时间: 2006-5-16 04:23

那为什么不能认为这儿的which是修饰the results 而不是profits

这样说来which也有指代歧义

作者: toeflboy2005 时间: 2006-5-26 10:20
A and B: "it" is wrong!

作者: mymengming 时间: 2006-7-22 15:52

以下是引用yuyingchao在2005-10-7 1:11:00的发言：