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标题: Vote: Chicago or Wharton or a US hedge fund [打印本页]

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-30 18:27
标题: Vote: Chicago or Wharton or a US hedge fund
I have got three offers at this moment

1. Wharton
2. Chicago
3. a USD 15bilion AUM US hedge fund's offer as investment analyst

My background:

Male, a top5 Mainland university bachelor degree

4.5 year work experience in HK

3.5 years as analyst/trader in a top Asian alternative asset management's hedge fund team in HK.

Which should I choose?

作者: moregel 时间: 2010-3-30 18:34
You are lucky to get "3" without US credential!

If hedge fund is what you want to do post-bschool; if you like the platform, agree with their strategy, belive you can work with those people, I'd vote for "3" and defer "1" or "2", if not both.

After all, you are still young(-ish), which allows you to spend one year for a "trial". Spend a year with 3, if it works, perfect; if not you still have 2 decent alternatives in your pocket...

BTW, what is "top5" mainlad uni? Never figured out which one is the No.5...

Lucky you!

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-30 18:40
Thanks for the advice

the one whose rank moves in a range of No.3-No.5 along all these years....

I think my top Asian hedge fund experience with a glamourous performance is the key to get the interests of all these three.

作者: NgKKh 时间: 2010-3-30 23:27
难怪LZ说会放弃Chicago的offer，有了Wharton跟hedge fund，Chicago自然是第一个弃子。

作者: MBA2010fall 时间: 2010-3-30 23:38
3, no brainer. I believe if you are capable to get all these offers, you should not ask for advice here since you should have clear goal already, otherwise either the schools or the fund picked up you incorrectly. sry for being honest.

作者: nirvana118 时间: 2010-3-30 23:39
a top5 Mainland university? So you are presumably from Nanjing U.,Zhejiang U.,USTC, am I right?

作者: mopton 时间: 2010-3-31 00:48
ZJU?

作者: SarahinSH 时间: 2010-3-31 01:57

I have got three offers at this moment

1. Wharton
2. Chicago
3. a USD 15bilion AUM US hedge fund's offer as investment analyst

My background:

Male, a top5 Mainland university bachelor degree

4.5 year work experience in HK

3.5 years as analyst/trader in a top Asian alternative asset management's hedge fund team in HK.

Which should I choose?

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/30 18:27:00)

Great Congrats!

I may not be in a good position to offer any advise at this point, but I would like to share with you what I've observed and learned from my friends at HF, MF and b-schools both at home and abroad.
If your intention is simply to switch your career to a HF and be exposed to an investment platform in US, go ahead with the third offer. MBA is rarely a plus to buy-side jobs. However, if you are very likely to be ready for starting your own fund in the short term, either 1 or 2 could be an option. The only criteria is which school can bring you most resources that will help you raise your fund, secure LP, etc. Just my two cents.

作者: windboy 时间: 2010-3-31 04:13
it depends on your career objective.

I will vote for chicago for a career in finance.

作者: rosaregale 时间: 2010-3-31 04:34
If your post-MBA goal is US hedge fund, then probably 3 - not really point spending all that money to go to B school
Otherwise 1 or 2 depending on your preference, both excellent schools, congrats!

作者: Cortega 时间: 2010-3-31 05:07
说国内TOP5的应该是南大，浙大，或者复旦毕业的。中科大的一般说自己是TOP3毕业的

作者: djcong 时间: 2010-3-31 05:13

说国内TOP5的应该是南大，浙大，或者复旦毕业的。中科大的一般说自己是TOP3毕业的

-- by 会员 Cortega (2010/3/31 5:07:06)

hehe, why this could be a topic?
I think Fudan ppl will talk about top four.
I am very interested in knowing which fund is top Asian fund. it is easy to guess which the US 15bn fund is.

作者: REgirl07 时间: 2010-3-31 09:09
As a fellow finance professional, I can give you my own perspective.

My background is both similar and different from yours. I currently work in a multi-billion USD real estate pe fund in the U.S., and I have tons of friends who are in IBD/PE/HF as well. I have lived in the U.S. for many years now, and went to a top public for undergrad. I am actually looking to move back out to Asia for the opportunities.

If you are truly set on HF, then go for the job.

eople routinely overestimate the importance of "learning" in business school and underestimate the importance of prior experience. If you don't have prior PE/VC/HF experience, those fields are almost always impossible to break into. No amount of "world-class education" would make you a star trader if you weren't one to begin with. As you know, there's a large gap between theories taught in the classroom and actual analyses done in real life. If you ever try to calculate WACC using the academic approach, your analysis would surely be laughed at by the partners. So the best way to get a HF job is to work at a HF.

With that said, I do see value in getting a MBA for people in this industry. It gives you the versatility and option for other opportunities down the line, and it also allows you to have a network that you wouldn't have otherwise. I started my career in '07, right at the end of the peak. From '08 - '09, I saw so many star analysts/associates/senior people got laid off from all the shops, many of them were some of the most hardworking/smartest people I know. The point is, many people w/ MBA degrees were able to quickly reach out to their network and plan their next steps. They also tend to have a broader perspective since they immersed themselves in a totally different environment for two years. It's all about the options, possibilities and preparation for future challenges.

As far as school goes, my biased vote is W.

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 09:28
I was in a US hf before. What's your hf's strategy?
I do see value in getting a mba too. Hf industry is so volatile as we experienced in the past two yrs. With a mba you will have more options and network if things do not work out as you planned.
My suggestion is you can defer W for a yr, work in the hf and see how things are going. Forget about C.
W definitely has better network and better location. It is important to stay in the northeastern area if you want to stay in finance.

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 09:30
BTW, are you a ustc alumni?

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 10:57
Thanks everyone.

A Wharton MBA is a negative NPV choice to make in short term. My current package is not what a fresh Wharton graduate can imagine.

The only reason why I even bother to apply to Wharton is that I think the long term gain may outweigh the short term loss. Especially, my eventual goal is to pursue entrepreneurship, e.g., setting up my own fund. So what I really want to find out is whether a network Wharton brings me is good enough for this purpose. Or a US hedge fund name helps me more when I start to raise my own fund.

REgirl07 and hissom, really appreciate your adivce. I have sent out my msn to you guys pls add me to discuss.

I am from Nanjing University btw, and I can't disclose the hedge fund I currently work at. It is a USD 5 billion plus fund and I manage its long/short equity portfolio of abt USD 100 million.

Thanks.

作者: stq 时间: 2010-3-31 12:02
1 除非你想转行，不然作HF的没必要读MBA

2 如果将来想开自己的fund, 你的track record，你客户对你的满意程度比任何学校的network都更加重要，反正这个行业就这么大，如果你做的好，根本不用通过校友网络别人也应该知道你的名字

3 不明白你去美国的HF动机何在。。
你现在是做亚洲的equity？那么去美国做啥？从头学起做一个不熟悉的产品？
干吗不继续做下去呢？或者哪怕要跳也应该在美国大型对冲基金的亚洲部方向跳，离开亚洲的职业损失不小啊。。

作者: REgirl07 时间: 2010-3-31 12:07
Happy to share.

If your eventual goal is to have your own fund, a top MBA (and W would qualify) would help a lot in terms of fundraising. I am assuming you are talking about a legit, sizable fund, and not one of those "I am rich so I am going to do my thing and call it a fund" funds. You probably already know, but for the benefit of others, the main capital sources for institutional funds out there are 1) pension funds 2) sovereign wealth funds and 3) high net worth individuals. These people don't necessarily understand your track record or strategy, but they absolutely respect the brands on your resume (that goes for both school and work experience).
People tend to think HF is all about being good at investing money, but that's only one side of the business. You need to raise money before you can invest any. How do you convince people, many of whom don't really understand finance at all, to give you their savings? Saying "I have returned 20% for the past five years" isn't good enough; you could be a ponzi scheme for all they know. They want to see names like GS/MS, top HF, top bschool...things that signal a "tried and proven" ability. That's why pedigree is so important in this circle. Open up a prospectus of any major fund, and you will find a list of the most well-respected schools and firms in the senior people's bios.

作者: yyferboy 时间: 2010-3-31 12:07

Thanks everyone.

A Wharton MBA is a negative NPV choice to make in short term. My current package is not what a fresh Wharton graduate can imagine.

The only reason why I even bother to apply to Wharton is that I think the long term gain may outweigh the short term loss. Especially, my eventual goal is to pursue entrepreneurship, e.g., setting up my own fund. So what I really want to find out is whether a network Wharton brings me is good enough for this purpose. Or a US hedge fund name helps me more when I start to raise my own fund.

REgirl07 and hissom, really appreciate your adivce. I have sent out my msn to you guys pls add me to discuss.

I am from Nanjing University btw, and I can't disclose the hedge fund I currently work at. It is a USD 5 billion plus fund and I manage its long/short equity portfolio of abt USD 100 million.

Thanks.

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/31 10:57:29)

你这人说话也忒狂了吧，什么"even bother to apply to Wharton", 看来Wharton这座小庙容不下你这尊大佛，不就本科毕业4.5年工作经验吗，wharton大把人工作好多年拿的肯定不比你低，什么叫fresh grad can't even imagine. 人家fresh grad很多去做HF的职位不比你高，拿的不比你多？

stq看清楚了，他是US hedge fund, 可没说去US做hedge fund. 不过stq说的对，不是个个做过大fund的人出来就能开自己的fund。你要raise fund得看自己，wharton的network再好，你没有track record谁敢给钱你啊。

作者: morespring 时间: 2010-3-31 12:20
I agree with Hissem. Delay Wharton, work for the HF for a year to see how it goes,, and forget about Chicago. This way you won't regret.

I am also in a somewhat similar dilemma. 5 years WE in IB and PE, accepted by MIT Sloan, but recently got a very good promotion. Don't want to switch industry. I am still inclined to B-school for the long-term potential upsides.

BTW, I am also a NJU graduate. Glad to know you.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 12:59
Thank you, Regirl07. Your advice is very helpful and it is what I have been thinking and debating about too.

Good traders dont' equal to successful founder of a new HF. Especially I don't have a US education and that makes it even harder to convince US LPs to invest with me. Investment is a monkey business and branding and selling capability is the ultimate key to success.

Morespring, Glad to meet you, I will send your my MSN and keep in touch

yyferboy, I was not trying to be arrogant and I am just an employee working for someone else. Nothing really awsome to be arrogant abt in the first place. I am just telling u a matter of fact that in my case Wharton is a negative NPV in short term. I don't think any Wharton MBA graduate joining a HF as junior will get paid USD 1 million a year.

作者: stonewall 时间: 2010-3-31 14:18
good post, valuable insights from market insiders.

my vote goes to 3 if your long term goal is to focus on Asian market and build ur own fund

I can't say MBAs is useless for HF, but none of my HF trader friends have MBA degrees (most of them hold either quant-oriented Ph.D or top Univ. undergrad degree). My understanding is MBAs might be a good long term investment for PE, VC, or corporate ppl except HF.

Good traders dont' equal to successful founder, but successful founder has to be good traders. You could partner with sb who is good on drafting the investment strategy, road show, PR all those crap.

no LPs would buy for your degree over ur prior tract record, just my two cents

作者: stq 时间: 2010-3-31 15:02

Happy to share.

If your eventual goal is to have your own fund, a top MBA (and W would qualify) would help a lot in terms of fundraising. I am assuming you are talking about a legit, sizable fund, and not one of those "I am rich so I am going to do my thing and call it a fund" funds. You probably already know, but for the benefit of others, the main capital sources for institutional funds out there are 1) pension funds 2) sovereign wealth funds and 3) high net worth individuals. These people don't necessarily understand your track record or strategy, but they absolutely respect the brands on your resume (that goes for both school and work experience).
People tend to think HF is all about being good at investing money, but that's only one side of the business. You need to raise money before you can invest any. How do you convince people, many of whom don't really understand finance at all, to give you their savings? Saying "I have returned 20% for the past five years" isn't good enough; you could be a ponzi scheme for all they know. They want to see names like GS/MS, top HF, top bschool...things that signal a "tried and proven" ability. That's why pedigree is so important in this circle. Open up a prospectus of any major fund, and you will find a list of the most well-respected schools and firms in the senior people's bios.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/3/31 12:07:15)

这我不同意。。
1 能提供你第一笔seed capital 的人，一般都和你以前有过这样那样的接触，对你个人有一定了解，更不可能不懂finance
所以track record绝对绝对是#1, 没有track record一切免谈。。
那些对金融不太了解的其它投资者，一般都是你的基金走上正轨后逐渐通过各种其它的销售渠道进来的。。特别是新创立的基金，pension fund/SWF这种机构哪来的DD能力？你这钱多半是从FoF, PB这种地方来的。。

2 branding/reputation虽然重要，但为了一个W的brand，浪费两年时间去读书而不是为自己多攒2年的track record? 太夸张了吧？
美国虽然那些人都是名校出来的，但那是因为美国金融业很成熟，有自己的target school, 你如果不是那些学校出来根本就进不了这个行当。但LZ竟然已经进来的，那么之后绝对是track record比学校牌子重要。。

3 如果都是在亚洲区的，那么那个US hedge fund的发展空间比你现在的fund大多少？是否能让你有更多的自由，给你更大的book，更高的title？
如果两者差不多的，美国那个牌子又强很多，还是去美国那个混几年。。
不过听你上面讲，你现在fund的AUM 5billion，而且又是本地的，那在亚洲也算是非常大的了，在这个圈子里的牌子未必就差。。那就看发展空间了。。

作者: csch 时间: 2010-3-31 15:38
Totally depends on whether you want a higher education or start working at this time.

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 15:41
In terms of fund raising I once went to a high profile fundraising networking event and did hear people(even those very senior guys) mentioning alumni network to ice break and warm up. But that was about it. When you reach that level I imagine it is more important what your real ability is.
Plus if you are on investment side performance is the key you can always find some marketing guy as a partner and you concentrate on trading.
so how much a mba would help I am really not sure. If you are already determined to stay in IM and have strong network ability it is really not that necessary in short run. Just staying in nyc ( I assume you work in this city) will bring you tons of network chances.
The reason I am asking what kinda strategy is strategy does matter how you choose your path. You do not have to disclose your fund's name but we can share some general advice with everyone in this forum.

Thanks everyone.

A Wharton MBA is a negative NPV choice to make in short term. My current package is not what a fresh Wharton graduate can imagine.

The only reason why I even bother to apply to Wharton is that I think the long term gain may outweigh the short term loss. Especially, my eventual goal is to pursue entrepreneurship, e.g., setting up my own fund. So what I really want to find out is whether a network Wharton brings me is good enough for this purpose. Or a US hedge fund name helps me more when I start to raise my own fund.

REgirl07 and hissom, really appreciate your adivce. I have sent out my msn to you guys pls add me to discuss.

I am from Nanjing University btw, and I can't disclose the hedge fund I currently work at. It is a USD 5 billion plus fund and I manage its long/short equity portfolio of abt USD 100 million.

Thanks.

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/31 10:57:29)

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 15:59
BTW, another thought, if you are going to work in nyc, why not try Columbia a yr later.
Get the degree and make the most of the two yrs of nyc experience. If you are aggressive and tough enough it is very possible that you can find some investor already at the end of the two yrs. I saw example like that.
My suggestion is stay in the center and make the most of the resource. A school won't give you that much at this point. Just get the brand name. The pedgree will stay with you for your whole life.

作者: yyferboy 时间: 2010-3-31 16:02

Thank you, Regirl07. Your advice is very helpful and it is what I have been thinking and debating about too.

Good traders dont' equal to successful founder of a new HF. Especially I don't have a US education and that makes it even harder to convince US LPs to invest with me. Investment is a monkey business and branding and selling capability is the ultimate key to success.

Morespring, Glad to meet you, I will send your my MSN and keep in touch

yyferboy, I was not trying to be arrogant and I am just an employee working for someone else. Nothing really awsome to be arrogant abt in the first place. I am just telling u a matter of fact that in my case Wharton is a negative NPV in short term. I don't think any Wharton MBA graduate joining a HF as junior will get paid USD 1 million a year.

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/31 12:59:48)

我也不相信你一个本科毕业4.5年的南大毕业生可以拿到投行junior MD的base+bonus的水平。香港也不可能。请行内人出来评评真假。

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 16:04
如果是trader成绩好的话也没什么不可能。

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 16:06
真正的big money都在hf里面，做得好跟捡钱似的，不过炮灰也一堆呵呵。

作者: yyferboy 时间: 2010-3-31 16:07

如果是trader成绩好的话也没什么不可能。

-- by 会员 hissom (2010/3/31 16:04:08)

问题他是investment analyst，又不是trader. 就算100个million的1%的管理费是1 mn, 不可能给他一个人吧。

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 16:08
不过有一点stq说得对，这个圈子这么小，如果你做得好大家都会知道你的，根本不用去network。

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 16:09
还有performance fee呀，那个才是大头

作者: maomaosi 时间: 2010-3-31 16:13
既然你有那么高薪了,为什么要去读书? 我认为拿多少钱一定程度上可以证明你的能耐. 我想,既然你可以"a USD 15bilion AUM US hedge fund's offer",那证明你并不是一个草包.如果你不是草包,那么你应该是对自己的未来和职业有规划的人,否则你也走不到这一步. 如果你很有规划很有想法,我SUPPOSELY去猜想说,你不会幼稚到为了要个WHARTON的REPUTATION去读书,而且从你的言语里看,WHARTON是个小庙,给不了你太多ADDED VALUE.那么问题就饶回去了,你的CHICAGO OR WHARTON OR US HEDGE FUND这个CONCERN,根本就是自相矛盾.

作者: Matrixrl 时间: 2010-3-31 16:19
why not work with the hf firm to gain a proven track record, the degree is just a title, if you really want network with guys having big bucks to raise your own fund, just try to display a good record. ppl will come to you once you're a justified cash cow.

作者: REgirl07 时间: 2010-3-31 16:20
I don't disagree with you. If you read my original post, I clearly said that if he's set on HF, he should go to HF.

My comment above, which you responded to, was more about raising capital in an institutional setting and the value of your degree in that process. I have always said previous experience is a must, but having the complete package definitely helps as well. It's not about a MBA instead of your track record, it's about having a brand in addition to your track record. It also depends on his work experience (which I also alluded to). If he has Goldman and Citadel on his resume, then yea, adding Wharton doesn't really make a difference. But if it's not a well-known name, then just having the numbers won't be as ideal. Moreover, it's not just about the brand; it's also about the network....

As for taking two years off to go get a MBA, that's a personal decision. In my opinion, two years is a short time if you took the long term perspective of your career. Back in 2007, people right out of analyst programs were being promised $500K - $1MM at various funds. The attitude was definitely anti-business school. Even H/S/W MBAs were being questioned about their decision to get the degree in the first place. It was almost like "did you not get a promotion? couldn't find a job?". Of course, that was all before the financial crisis. Half of those funds are non-existent today. My point is, working for next two years has its own risks as well. He could make it big, or it could go belly up fast. In the end, the person has to decide what he wants to put on the table.

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 16:34
totally agree with regirl.

A mba is a plus on your package not like other kids as a brisk to the door.
And two yrs are short if you took the long term perspective of your career.
If you want to prepare your package to be the fullest it does not hurt to get a degree. And for network, you do not know in 10yrs whether some of your wharton friends in other sectors would already be rich enough to give you seeding.
Hf is such a volatile industry once you fail you might never be able to get back in door. I saw many funds closed during financial crisis and a lot talents still out of job if they do not want to settle on other "less prestigious" sector. I mean what can you do if you are not trading?
So I think getting a degree is one more layer of insurance.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 16:48
yyferboy, excuse me, but you are totally a Red Neck.

First, I am a trader+investment anlayst

Second, performance fee is the key. HF gets 20% cut and the trader normally gets 5-10%

Third, IBD is ranked the lowest in the fianance industry and we buyside see them as stupid jokes. IBD MD is nobody to us, not to mention their pay.

Fourth, my boss' package is USD 40m last year FYI. I am a small potato in comparison

Last but not least, if you don't have constructive advice, and you don't know a shit, pls shut up.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 16:55
Hissom, agree with you. Trading is not a life long career. My edge will decline as I pass certain age. In this sense, longer term gain from a MBA is that it acts like a safety net and open more alternatives.

作者: Ken_Hsu 时间: 2010-3-31 16:55
申请这件事真是有意思，有像Lz这样优秀的人才可以进Wharton,也有没有文凭的人也能进Wharton

作者: Yunemma 时间: 2010-3-31 17:01
回帖真犀利。笑死我了。
支持去Warton~~~杀敌敌~~~

作者: stq 时间: 2010-3-31 17:16

I don't disagree with you. If you read my original post, I clearly said that if he's set on HF, he should go to HF.

My comment above, which you responded to, was more about raising capital in an institutional setting and the value of your degree in that process. I have always said previous experience is a must, but having the complete package definitely helps as well. It's not about a MBA instead of your track record, it's about having a brand in addition to your track record. It also depends on his work experience (which I also alluded to). If he has Goldman and Citadel on his resume, then yea, adding Wharton doesn't really make a difference. But if it's not a well-known name, then just having the numbers won't be as ideal. Moreover, it's not just about the brand; it's also about the network....

As for taking two years off to go get a MBA, that's a personal decision. In my opinion, two years is a short time if you took the long term perspective of your career. Back in 2007, people right out of analyst programs were being promised $500K - $1MM at various funds. The attitude was definitely anti-business school. Even H/S/W MBAs were being questioned about their decision to get the degree in the first place. It was almost like "did you not get a promotion? couldn't find a job?". Of course, that was all before the financial crisis. Half of those funds are non-existent today. My point is, working for next two years has its own risks as well. He could make it big, or it could go belly up fast. In the end, the person has to decide what he wants to put on the table.

-- by 会员 REgirl07 (2010/3/31 16:20:15)

1 但这并不是in addition的问题，LZ面临的选择就是：如果去读书，必然意味着少2年的经验，这在我看来是非常不值的。

2 LZ现在工作的基金并不小，而且亚洲对冲基金大的就这么几家，就这么点人，圈子就这么大，读个W，利用W network的marginal benefit有限。哪怕真的为了所谓的branding, 跳槽也比脱产读书两年强。

3 正是因为工作有很大的risk,所以现在才更要工作。。
HF整个产业过于volatile, 说穿了，大多数的人就在里面搏运气，亚洲市场更是如此，特别特别是Equity Long/Short这种。。不可控因素太多了。。
在这个行业2年时间可是非常的宝贵。。多少基金根本就活不过5年。。如果08年那波没挺过去，被laid off了，那么自然回头读书，机会成本也小。但最艰难的时间都挺过来了，眼看着将来这段时间起码现在看起来市场还不错，既然还能赚，干嘛不继续赚下去？能捞多少捞多少，谁知道还能捞多久？哪天不能捞了再回头读书也不是不可以。。
作HF，最大的一个问题就是淘汰率太高，一旦淘汰转行去其它行业比较困难，不比banking。所以MBA是个很好的insurance..
LZ还不到30，干嘛不继续工作下去，如果4-5年后你还能存活，那么到时候你的工作经验已经不需要读MBA了。如果运气不好，被淘汰了，起码你钱赚到手了，那时候还能回头读个MBA，想干嘛干嘛去。。
现在赚钱时机不错，干嘛浪费那么宝贵的2年去读MBA?

PS:不知道现在香港是怎么样的，是不是每年的bonus直接就是cash, 不过将来一个很有可能的趋势就是像banking这样搞很恶心的vesting,
就对冲基金这种volatility, 一搞那东西你损失不是一点半点，所以还是趁现在能捞尽量捞。。。

作者: stq 时间: 2010-3-31 17:22

我也不相信你一个本科毕业4.5年的南大毕业生可以拿到投行junior MD的base+bonus的水平。香港也不可能。请行内人出来评评真假。

-- by 会员 yyferboy (2010/3/31 16:02:48)

和哪里毕业无关，和在哪里工作有关。。交易员有自己的P&L，是有提成的。。
所以对冲基金的交易员 1百万美元一年，太正常了，一年数千万美元都一把把的。。只不过这行当的持久力差点，风险高点。。谁都不知道捞了今年还有没有明年。。

作者: demoncraft 时间: 2010-3-31 17:47
opinion from a outsider, it's not abt bschool or HF, it could be "bschool later" and "HF rite now"..

why don't u go for bschool say like 2 years later since u get such a great opportunity right now?

作者: REgirl07 时间: 2010-3-31 17:54

PS:不知道现在香港是怎么样的，是不是每年的bonus直接就是cash, 不过将来一个很有可能的趋势就是像banking这样搞很恶心的vesting,
就对冲基金这种volatility, 一搞那东西你损失不是一点半点，所以还是趁现在能捞尽量捞。。。

-- by 会员 stq (2010/3/31 17:16:53)

Haha, I think we both agree that MBA is a good insurance.

Getting carry is worse than vesting...units from the past 3 years are pretty much all worth negatives for most PE funds. Fun times.

作者: moregel 时间: 2010-3-31 18:29
I'm not sure if you discuss that with J.J. (other interviewer) in w's interview.
What he did say to me was that "you might not need it and still doing pretty well"; "however, if your goal is to raise your own fund at some point, as the 'REgirl' pointed out earlier, those fund of funds people look for 'brands' in your bio. It might not be the most effective but surely an efficient way (btw, so do the bschools and I guess that's part of the reason why hbs allocates half admissions in China to Mck kids?)

Brand MBA is like an insurance. If you are Bill Gates or Chris Hsu (let alone what happened later), you don't need an MBA, not even an under degree. But most people are not bill gates; or they are at least not sure if they are hehe...

In addition, for a cautious person (such as myself?), an MBA might also be sth you want to get it now for your retirement job 15+ years down the road? Well, if you do make good fortune, you don't need such a job at all....

作者: lhn8848 时间: 2010-3-31 18:34

我也不相信你一个本科毕业4.5年的南大毕业生可以拿到投行junior MD的base+bonus的水平。香港也不可能。请行内人出来评评真假。

-- by 会员 yyferboy (2010/3/31 16:02:48)

-- by 会员 stq (2010/3/31 17:22:23)

能捞成那样的,估计也不在乎有没有明年了吧.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 18:45
Thanks everyone again for your genuine advice.

Btw, my bonus is all cash, but there is a trend in the industy to have a 3-year vesting scheme now. For example, at Chilton etc.

This would be pain in the ass.

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-31 20:03
Chasedream上的sample还比较小，而且更多人与HF并不相熟。我不大清楚HF是否像PE或IB这样很激情得热爱着各种brand（我知道的Och-ziff就非常关心，虽然它PE和HF都有涉及到），建议LZ给你熟悉且能信任的HF业内的和head hunter打电话问问，听听整天在这一个行业里摸爬滚打的人的建议。

另外如前面的同学说了HF风险确实很大，稍不小心就blow up了，创始人和投资人都还okay，可怜的就是小兵们。来W当然也不错，不过像PE、HF、IM等确实是要求有过去的从业经验，这里就又是个chicken and egg的问题了。综合上来看，我觉得W或HF对LZ都不错，最后选哪个还是看HF业内人士的意见。

作者: ytht234 时间: 2010-3-31 20:53
好帖，有营养。感到mba有时确实很鸡肋，特别对于investment management来说

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 23:08
如果不是鸡肋，我也不会发贴抒发苦闷了

作者: NgKKh 时间: 2010-3-31 23:40
此贴阅毕，余心大快。众口纷纭，杂而不芜。遥祝楼主，一路悠悠。

作者: olivermu 时间: 2010-3-31 23:47
Still comes to the question what you want to get out from the MBA.
If just to land a decent job, then you've already got it.
If to achieve financial freedom and early retirement, then know what is your goal and calculate how long will it take to achieve to accept that HF job. If 2-3 year can help you achieve your goal, then is it worth chasing for an MBA now?
If the ultimate goal is to build your own fund, whatever VC/PE/HF, capacity and reputation are equally important. I guess the world is different for the former 2, while the success of HF is, to a larger extent, based on luck and market. Just as even a good CEO doesn't necessarily make a successful entrepreneur.In this respect, either choice will add limited value yet in different ways, as it is you as a whole who makes the differentce, while brand and hands-on experience only make part of yourself.

I think it is wise to defer 1 year and leave the decision to make then. All in all, you are still very young.

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 23:48
先干着，混不下去了或者需要更大突破再去念，现在能申到以后也能申到。

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 23:51
对了能不能share一下你怎么address your hf experience, I have headache on that.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-3-31 23:53
I rescued and turned around the fund into a best performing fund during 2008-2009. Internal entrepreneurship that type of shit.......

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-3-31 23:59
oh well what if I did not make tons of money?

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-4-1 00:01
To olivermu, if my goall is just to achieve financial freedom, I should retire now to Bali, open a beach bar, flirt with chikcs and enjoy life.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-4-1 00:02
to hissom, say something like my efforts saved my company's ass from huge mistakes they would have made.

作者: biantaishabi 时间: 2010-4-1 00:07
我觉得楼主这样的情况别读沃顿了，继续干下去，过几年雇三五个沃顿的毕业生给你工作吧，这一样也是branding……

作者: waterbearer 时间: 2010-4-1 00:26
LZ估计已经做决定了吧~? vote for 3.
回来update我们你的最后选择呀。。。

作者: superbaby01 时间: 2010-4-1 00:33
Just my two cents.

For option 3, guess you won't feel too bad about giving up Wharton if it all works out. But what if you lose your position for whatever reason three or six months into this new job? You probably know the volatility of this industry better than I do.

作者: moregel 时间: 2010-4-1 00:45
看了有些帖子，我觉得有点。。。sad。。。是义正词严地对单一价值（money) 的追逐，并且assume所有人都应该是为这一种单一价值的追逐而活着的。比如，怎么样多赚钱？2年时间“浪费”不能accumulate experience/track record的bschool上根本不值得。或许这种单一的价值观就是我们这个国家在经历49年后，经历68-78后，如今经济高速增长后的写照。

如果换个角度看，是不是也可以把bschool看做一种life experience? 去新的地方，遇到不一样的人，增加见识（我知道这听起来很土）。我不知道这种想法对BUZINESS school 是不是太过天真，是不是凡事都应该算一算IRR。。。

可能很多人在犹豫挣扎，不过我想这些非经济的因素也是天平一端的重要砝码，虽然很难量化，或者量化到多少全在于你自己有多看重所谓的“experience"。当我问我老爸是不是要去读书的时候，他跟我说“反正人就活一辈子，想去看看玩玩，还不趁有这样的机会去？”

作者: hissom 时间: 2010-4-1 00:50
hf这个game本来就是纯赚钱啊，这个行业跟其他不太一样，我们是进行技术性讨论的。我相信大部分有能力做到hf的人都不见得只是为了钱。很多trader hf manager赚了钱之后回馈社会或者做其他有意义的事情。可是IM本身这个行业either you make money or you lose。讨论人生意义啥的是另外一个topic，不在这个贴的范围里。

作者: verilog2009 时间: 2010-4-1 00:50

看了有些帖子，我觉得有点。。。sad。。。是义正词严地对单一价值（money) 的追逐，并且assume所有人都应该是为这一种单一价值的追逐而活着的。比如，怎么样多赚钱？2年时间“浪费”不能accumulate experience/track record的bschool上根本不值得。或许这种单一的价值观就是我们这个国家在经历49年后，经历68-78后，如今经济高速增长后的写照。

如果换个角度看，是不是也可以把bschool看做一种life experience? 去新的地方，遇到不一样的人，增加见识（我知道这听起来很土）。我不知道这种想法对BUZINESS school 是不是太过天真，是不是凡事都应该算一算IRR。。。

可能很多人在犹豫挣扎，不过我想这些非经济的因素也是天平一端的重要砝码，虽然很难量化，或者量化到多少全在于你自己有多看重所谓的“experience"。当我问我老爸是不是要去读书的时候，他跟我说“反正人就活一辈子，想去看看玩玩，还不趁有这样的机会去？”

-- by 会员 moregel (2010/4/1 0:45:05)

不土，其实很多人都这样想。

作者: moregel 时间: 2010-4-1 00:55

hf这个game本来就是纯赚钱啊，这个行业跟其他不太一样，我们是进行技术性讨论的。我相信大部分有能力做到hf的人都不见得只是为了钱。很多trader hf manager赚了钱之后回馈社会或者做其他有意义的事情。可是IM本身这个行业either you make money or you lose。讨论人生意义啥的是另外一个topic，不在这个贴的范围里。

-- by 会员 hissom (2010/4/1 0:50:30)

I think what LZ asked for here was not merely a technical analysis and actually he already said that bschool would probably be a negative NPV investment for him, at least for the short-term. The reason he (and many other people too) are debating with himself is probably because those difficult-to-quatified variables.

Real life is not science. Different people put different weight on each dimension. And at the end of the day, 20 or 30 years from now, it is very difficult to attibute things/benifit to a single input (e.g. bschool, people you meet there, inspirations occured to you then, a certain deal you worked on, or even a random show you watched... ). Would you say the merriment of sharing some school experience with your grandkids worths less or more than the $ you made in 1 or 2 years? Nobody can give an answer...

It is about choice and it is some choice that could bring butterfly effect to one's life...

apologize if it sounds off and maybe I'm just trying to persuade myself...

作者: REgirl07 时间: 2010-4-1 01:09

-- by 会员 moregel (2010/4/1 0:45:05)

I totally agree with you. I think LZ knows that as well, but this is the practical reality of the industry. In retrospect, I really came to appreciate going through the financial crisis when I was young and freshly out of college. Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely scary and morale was low across the entire finance community. But going through something like that, especially when I had little to lose, really gave me a sense of perspective. All that glitters is not gold. When you succeed at a young age, people tend to forget who they really are and what really matters to them. If you lose your high finance job and can no longer afford to drop $$$ for designer goods and bottles at a club, will your life still have meaning?

I am getting off topic here, but your post got me thinking.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-1 01:30
The number one thing we learn in management classes: if you don't like the culture of your industry, then leave, before it's too late. If you love it, then good for you! Stay there no matter what

作者: stonewall 时间: 2010-4-1 03:42
that's why 曾子墨 & 劉芳 switched their careers from wall streeter to anchor-women at Phoenix TV to pursue better life style

作者: WaterWalker 时间: 2010-4-1 03:54

说国内TOP5的应该是南大，浙大，或者复旦毕业的。中科大的一般说自己是TOP3毕业的

-- by 会员 Cortega (2010/3/31 5:07:06)

只有中科大的自己说自己是top3，没人说他是。一般提top2, top4，如果说top5，估计是中科大或者南大，浙大。

come back to the original post, vote for 3. Simple reason, school is still there if you do not go this year, but opportunity won't be there any more. Ask Wharton to postpone.

作者: olivermu 时间: 2010-4-1 16:02

To olivermu, if my goall is just to achieve financial freedom, I should retire now to Bali, open a beach bar, flirt with chikcs and enjoy life.

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/4/1 0:01:49)

Hey, nspyhk

Pls calm down... I don't know what exactly you want and am just trying to give you some advice. If it gives you some thoughts, then I will feel glad about it. Do not mean to challenge you or make it offensive, yet pursuit for financial freedom is nothing wrong, though life is far larger than that. I believe total spiritual enrichment or freedom is built on financial freedom, but many people still can get happiness and fulfillment through other ways.
I do not undervalue your ambition and I know all youngsters do think big. But when you really start something from scratch, it is a different story than being a star trader. In that event, what I said was that either option can be ok but it is you who make difference. School or hands-on experience adds value, but neither is the most critical.
Figure out what's appealing to you for both options and know what you want more. In many cases, life is more than just sophisticated calculation.

I used to be staying in Indonesia for 2 yrs. Bali, well, it's ok lah...

作者: zack_wong 时间: 2010-4-1 20:44
U r good at trading, but that's all. That's what I can see here...

作者: wwwzzz 时间: 2010-4-1 22:32
i'm not sure if this is how you should talk to others, even anonymously in a virtual world. Understand the pressure, but calm down. Nobody is trying to discredit you here, unless you are doing that to yourself.

yyferboy, excuse me, but you are totally a Red Neck.

First, I am a trader+investment anlayst

Second, performance fee is the key. HF gets 20% cut and the trader normally gets 5-10%

Third, IBD is ranked the lowest in the fianance industry and we buyside see them as stupid jokes. IBD MD is nobody to us, not to mention their pay.

Fourth, my boss' package is USD 40m last year FYI. I am a small potato in comparison

Last but not least, if you don't have constructive advice, and you don't know a shit, pls shut up.

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/31 16:48:42)

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-2 02:05
This thread is getting very ugly. Tone it down, or I'll close it off. That would be a shame, since LZ is asking about an important topic that can benefit many and I enjoy reading people's opinions about it.

So, please.

作者: nspyhk 时间: 2010-4-5 19:04
Btw, Jason, what is your opinion on the school choice since you went to both Chicago and Wharton?

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-5 21:26
It looks like we have very different career goals and background, so I'm not sure that what was a good fit for me would be a good fit for you.

That being said I loved them both, for different reasons. Chicago had amazing teachers and academics, and the city was just plain awesome. Wharton on the other hand is a very dynamic place with students that are involved in all aspects of school and extra-curricular life, and this makes for a very rewarding all-rounded experience.

作者: francescaff 时间: 2010-4-8 12:34
You probably cannot get a HF job after MBA.

作者: kevingu 时间: 2010-4-8 13:24
go to hedge fund。
to asset management/alternative investment，MBA is nonsense

作者: wongrichx 时间: 2010-4-8 23:05
Hedge fund is a really fantastic area
people can make multi-million or even billion a year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1262877/Crisis-crisis-Top-25-hedge-fund-managers--including-George-Soros--pocket-average-1billion-2009.html

no other jobs can offer such crazy reward
it can drive people mad

If I was you, I would pick the HF without second thought!

作者: pawpawbear 时间: 2010-4-9 12:52

-- by 会员 nspyhk (2010/3/31 12:59:48)

我也不相信你一个本科毕业4.5年的南大毕业生可以拿到投行junior MD的base+bonus的水平。香港也不可能。请行内人出来评评真假。

-- by 会员 yyferboy (2010/3/31 16:02:48)

完全有可能的吧。

作者: rosemarychina 时间: 2010-4-10 05:45
Though I'm not in finance business but I know what a privilege it is to work for a hedge fund - it opens the door for you and you will be ahead of many post MBA people. HFs don't necessarily like MBAs and some of the big guys in the industry (e.g. Steve Cohen) only have a bachelor's degree. The monetary and spiritual reward is tremendous in a top hedge fund. I will definitely recommend Top 3.

作者: rosemarychina 时间: 2010-4-10 05:47
BTW, the average first yr in HF in the US is roughly $250k+ but some good ones pay even more ($500k)

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-10 08:26
Honestly these numbers have me seeing stars. Sometimes I *REALLY* wish I enjoyed Finance

作者: LBSMIF 时间: 2010-6-26 23:03
go for hege fund, then do the executive MBA plus the company pay for you.

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