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标题: 转自BW，Wharton校友对W的reflection, a must-read. [打印本页]

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-4 23:01
标题: 转自BW，Wharton校友对W的reflection, a must-read.
From: SANFORDK1

Date: 4/5/07

I'd say this post is right on:altho recruting stats may blur the importance of what job you had B4 attending school, which in HF and PE is key. Not sure how this addresses issue of MIT v. W, tho, b.c. much of what he says about culture at W is also true at MIT, I think, and even at H, altho campus and grounds at H are 1000 percent better than W or M, b.c. most kids live on campus, and the tunnels and fancy buildings are inherent camaradie builders.

The issue under addressed is how hard is it to get a PE or HF gig coming out of MIT? Anyone?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WHARTONITE07

Date: 2007-04-04T15:09:59

I was in the same boat two years ago. I wanted to go to H/S, but got into W/MIT. I ended up picking Wharton. I would say there is a fairly large contingent of folks I have met at Wharton who were in a similar boat. The two schools most Wharton folks were choosing between were MIT and Kellogg.

As a near graduate, I have to say there are some pros and cons going to Wharton. Looking back however, I still would have picked Wharton even though there are some real negative points to the program at this point in time.

PROS: The name brand is much better than people in the chat room give it credit for. Wharton is a recruiting powerhouse. Those numbers for Mck,BCG,Bain,Goldman ect. are no indication of the number of the offers we get (they are offers accepted). For the most part, these company's have much lower yield with our students than they probably would with a lesser ranked school. I doubt McKinsey converts over 60% of the offers it makes. In my class we had over 75 students do a summer at PE/HF. These guys get lots of McK offers and virtually nobody takes them. McK gave out over 100 full time offers to my class. Only about 50-60 take them.

I went the PE route this fall and noticed that most funds exclusively recruit at H/S/W. Blackstone, KKR, Caryle, TPG, etc. My guess of the offer allocation is H=60%, S=25%, W=15%. Thats not great for Wharton considering its size. On the Hedge Fund side with top mega funds ($5B+) I would say its more like H=40%, W=40%, S=10%, Other M7=10%. I went to 10 final rounds and these are the dudes I ran into every time. Incidentally you can go to 9 final rounds and walk out empty handed.

E is really tough.

Another interesting thing is we have a strong Healthcare and Real Estate program. These folks come in super focused on these sectors and really do not recruit anywhere else. Often they have other professional degrees or are sponsored by their companies. Strangely I also meet a bunch of folks taking over family businesses/enterprise. These guys also relieve job competition.

So if you are not looking for a job internatinally, not in healthcare, real estate, pe, hf, vc or pe, then you stand in a minority at Wharton.

robably only 30-40% of folks are Americans looking for typical consulting jobs, banking, indsutry, marketing, tech.

These jobs are super easy to get with the vast majority of folks at Wharton getting a top name brand job. Even the really stupid ones that I puzzle over.

I did my summer job at McKinsey San Francisco. The office was 95% staffed with HBS, Stanford and Wharton. Incidentally SF is the toughest offer to get from any consulting firm. You will see what I mean when you get to Bschool.

My roomate is going to work for Xbox. He said Wharton is the #1 represented school at MS. Also Google hands out offers to Wharton by the truck load. All of the top tech firms recruit at Wharton and give plentiful numbers of offers.

Also Wharton is not a one trick pony finance school. That is retarded. Nobody gets to be a top 5 business school by being good at only one thing. Thats like saying Harvard does not produce good finance guys. Or that Stanford only produces entrepreneurs. EVERY admissions office looks for diversity. There are many people in my class that SUCK at finance. You can avoid finance all two years at Wharton if you want to.

Program /Classes: Overall I give it an A-.

We have a huge list of classes you can take. The breadth and depth is astonishing. This semester I took a real estate class that teaches you how to acquire environmentally tarnished land and develop it. We have a lab every week where we learn general contracting skills and work with power tools.

My girlfriend is taking an estate planning class. They teach you how to pass down wealth tax free to your children.

You will have a chance to take classes on topics you didn't even know that existed.

CONS:

Wharton is not a school that fosters comaraderie. The student body has an akwardly contentious relationship with the administration. Wharton is a place that fosters absolutely no culture or sense of Wharton identity. I think that H/S/Tuck/Kellogg do any amazing job at fostering community.

I give Wharton a D- on this measure.

90% of us live in high rise or brownstone apartments in Center City and commute to campus. Huntsman Hall is basically a MBA shopping mall complete with escalators. Wharton feels alot like going to a job. You have your own life at home and then you commute in at 9 and out by 3. You can go two years at Wharton without making any meaningful friendships. It can be quite a lonely place for some. That said if you are outgoing and try, you can make lots of friends. Albiet Wharton is a very clicky place due to its commuting nature. Nobody hangs out on campus. So if you have no friends, its back to your apartment for you after class and Friday-Sunday.

Wharton is NOT a leadership school. It is just not what the schools cares about. We are an academic school with dozens of specialties. Wharton is a place where you can learn anything you want about a specific subject in a highly pragmatic way. Wharton is a great place for folks who know what they want to learn, are already somewhat experts in their fields and want to dive in deeper into a specific subject. This is not a touchy feely leadership seminar like HBS. Its just totally different.

That said, Wharton does admit lots of folks with amazing leadership experiences. We have a list of hundreds of CEOs alum in top companies in virtually every industry. Go to the Wharton program office and pick up an alumni brochure. You will be amazed by the list of business leaders yielding a Wharton degree. This is not CFO/banker school as many idiots on BW claim. I think only HBS rivals our list.

I would argue that Wharton did not teach these guys anything about leadership. They were leaders by heart already and Wharton gave them other edges that helped them flourish.

SO in summary Wharton is good for the following types of people:

1. Care about brand in corporate recruiting (not to impress grandma and her friends. Might as well go to Yale then)

2. Do not have delusions about bschool making you into a leader (HBS produces alot of leaders; as does Wharton, simply because they admit alot of them).

3. Have a strong sense of what you want to learn and are looking to dive very deep into subject matter.

4. Are a selfstarter socially. Wharton will not hand over friends and fun like other schools. That is up to you.

5. Can handle quantitative stress. (this doesn't mean you have to be good at math. But the program will test your nerves if you are not at least in the first 90 days).

6. Can deal with a super annoying admistration.

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-4 23:21
Here is a follow-up as desert

WHARTON POST: A FRIEND FROM PHILLY COMMENTS--

On recruting for PE: HBS guys complain just as much as we do about how hard it is to get a good PE job. I think it's easy for people at Wharton to say "I didn't get a PE job because these firms favor HBS guys" instead of "I didn't get a PE job because I had sh*t prior experience/bombed interview/bad luck" etc. Always good to have an external bogeyman. You could throw out the data point "HBS lands 2x more people in PE than Wharton!" and I'm sure you'd be right. What is also true is that HBS TAKES 2X MORE PE GUYS TO BEGIN WITH (or at least used to)!

Also true that I've seen people whom I might conclude are marginal, at least based on classroom comments, reputation, etc. get McK, Bain, BCG jobs. Ditto Goldman, Morgan Stanley. That could be true about other schools too though: I don't have a control group. What I will say is that it seems like a cakewalk to get a bulge bracket IB or top 3 consulting gig out of this place.

On culture: I would probably admit that we are dominated by cliques.

eople here really gravitate toward people who are just like them. Many of my friends are similar to me in terms of background, prior work exp, etc.

Don't love the dig on the administration. Wharton gives students a lot of power, so inevitably there's some back and forth between students and admin because we're empowered & organized. I think they actually bend over backward to make sure we have a good experience at this place and the students sometimes get a little spoiled.

作者: rosaregale 时间: 2010-3-5 00:20
"Wharton is not a school that fosters comaraderie. The student body has an akwardly contentious relationship with the administration. Wharton is a place that fosters absolutely no culture or sense of Wharton identity. I think that H/S/Tuck/Kellogg do any amazing job at fostering community.

I give Wharton a D- on this measure."

同意这个说法。最近在申top 10, 发现每所学校都有自己独特之处，唯有wharton, 怎么也感觉不到Wharton identity. 昨天刚跟一位wharton校友面试，总体感觉很难受，让我觉得不给offer也罢，连thank you email 都快写不出来了。

不过，两个月前去学校参观，感觉还行，学校很大，所以也遇到了几个热情真诚的学生。Wharton每周四下午都有MBA Pub, 很多学生都去那里聊天，喝啤酒吃pizza, 感觉这是它一个亮点。

作者: zhupp 时间: 2010-3-5 00:38
Almost Every Bschool have social hours and beers and food are provided.
I just feel sorry about how blind people are here about schools and choices.
I think every Top Business School has sort of same culture! Because they are Bschools. They are all composed of young professionals at a average of 27-28 years old who want to earn more money in the future! This set a base tone for all bschools.
After all, school is only a place for education. It's YOUSELF who determine whether you will get a good job in the future, how successful you will be and how happy you are with your own life!
So I felt this kind of discussion is really meaningless and misleading!

作者: rosaregale 时间: 2010-3-5 00:39
刚刚在BusinessWeek 看到的，来自一位alum interviewer,觉得很有帮助,要是面试前看到就好了：

this is probably a little late for u but some free advice for everyone else. i'm really surprised how different the interview looks from outside than from the inside. i'm an alumni interviewer, did 6 this last round. i won't tell u exactly what guidelines adcom gives, there's a lot and some is pretty specific. interviewers are looking for specific qualities no matter what question they ask. we might probe into areas that concern us, but i've been seeing candidates that just really miss the ball, even though we give them chances to answer. it's not a stress interview, it's really a time for the candidate to show off their best stuff.

tips:

1. DO NOT RAMBLE. even if your answers suck, if the candidate sticks to structured answers, they'll get the benefit of the doubt. rambling = interpreted as unable to grasp and communicate main ideas.
2. Frame your answers. numbering your points generally scores points.
3. leadership stories matter. it's up to you to make sure those get told no matter what question gets answered.
4. know your transitions/'why i made these decisions' down cold. how you reason demonstrates your judgement, your maturity and insight.
5. describe processes. how you got from A to B. mba is highly concerned with breaking down problems into pieces.
6. show that you're a person who's going somewhere in life. passion, energy & direction.

a typical interviewer can get a lot of this out of a 'walk through resume', why mba, goals, why wharton. pre-know where weaknesses/perceived resume stereotypes are and speak to them proactively to pre-empt interviewer concerns before they bring it up.

hope that helps, good luck y'all!!

作者: taktha 时间: 2010-3-5 01:37
Wharton的学生都是很有思想的，有五。四的风范，是我仰望的那种。

http://www.businessinsider.com/wharton-mba-student-goes-off-on-the-wharton-dean-via-email-2010-1?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+clusterstock+(ClusterStock)&utm_content=Google+Reader

作者: maxdaddy 时间: 2010-3-5 02:11
I know W does not have a close-knit community, but I didnt know W was a commuter school like Columbia and Stern.

but the numbers of available courses and concentrations in W are really second to none. it's an ideal place for someone to develop business knowledge and skills of his/her wish...

作者: stonewall 时间: 2010-3-5 02:56
And for those folks with focus on health care and real estate, W is a no-brainer as well.

作者: hotmail2006 时间: 2010-3-5 03:34

Almost Every Bschool have social hours and beers and food are provided.
I just feel sorry about how blind people are here about schools and choices.
I think every Top Business School has sort of same culture! Because they are Bschools. They are all composed of young professionals at a average of 27-28 years old who want to earn more money in the future! This set a base tone for all bschools.
After all, school is only a place for education. It's YOUSELF who determine whether you will get a good job in the future, how successful you will be and how happy you are with your own life!
So I felt this kind of discussion is really meaningless and misleading!

-- by 会员 zhupp (2010/3/5 0:38:52)

I actually disagree with you on this. many top bschools in the US have their own culture, though not all. Wharton for example, probably Booth too, were the schools that I have visited and did not feel they had unique culture. However, schools like Kellogg of example have a very very strong culture associated to teamwork. I know and work with no less than 10 Kellogg folks and they all seem to fit that culture.
But I do agree with you on the point that in the end it is still up to you to make it happen. But I think a good culture fit can help you go even further. With that said, having the luxury to actually pick MBA program based on culture is not something everyone has. Most of us end up going to the one that accepts us, haha.
Best of luck to everyone who are waiting on the March 26th Wharton offer!

作者: mopton 时间: 2010-3-5 05:09
Mark this good post!

作者: geniuswang 时间: 2010-3-5 05:30
support

作者: kdream 时间: 2010-3-5 05:34
The part about recruiting is a bit misleading to international/chinese students. The poster emphasized himself that "if you are not looking for international jobs". Because that's a whole different issue.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-3-5 10:40

-- by 会员 hotmail2006 (2010/3/5 3:34:39)

As a Wharton and Chicago alum (and having spent years at these schools), I suspect that you just don't understand the cultures at each. I feel the culture at these two schools very very strongly. That you don't, is maybe a good sign that you're not a good fit for these two schools. Nothing wrong with that, really. You should choose a school that you understand and like the culture at!

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-5 10:43

-- by 会员 hotmail2006 (2010/3/5 3:34:39)

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/3/5 10:40:22)

Until the fat lady sings, indeed, until the fat lady sings

作者: orchidq 时间: 2010-3-5 11:23

"Wharton is not a school that fosters comaraderie. The student body has an akwardly contentious relationship with the administration. Wharton is a place that fosters absolutely no culture or sense of Wharton identity. I think that H/S/Tuck/Kellogg do any amazing job at fostering community.

I give Wharton a D- on this measure."

同意这个说法。最近在申top 10, 发现每所学校都有自己独特之处，唯有wharton, 怎么也感觉不到Wharton identity. 昨天刚跟一位wharton校友面试，总体感觉很难受，让我觉得不给offer也罢，连thank you email 都快写不出来了。

不过，两个月前去学校参观，感觉还行，学校很大，所以也遇到了几个热情真诚的学生。Wharton每周四下午都有MBA Pub, 很多学生都去那里聊天，喝啤酒吃pizza, 感觉这是它一个亮点。

-- by 会员 rosaregale (2010/3/5 0:20:17)

Mind to share ur views about the culture u found about the other 9 top schools?
Don't have chance for campus visit and couldn't detect the culture only from school website. (Maybe I am too tardy?)
Thanks for ur sharing in advance!!!!

作者: Cova 时间: 2010-3-5 11:48
标题: 继续转帖，看看校友怎么说的

ANOTHER WHARTON KID CHIMES IN, THIS ONE A GRAD.
Sandy,

This is a blast from the past. First up, Thanks for the tons of free advice on the forums as well as the initial phone "kick in the ass" free essay review which really motivated me. I think your insights into schools and what drives admits/career possibilities is usually spot on. I thought so when I was applying and now so many years later - I still think so. Any way I ended up in wharton and McKinsey after that. I have had a chance to work closely with grads from all the top schools and I have been back on campuses recruiting. Lately, many people I know have been going to PE. Here are some of my observations on job hunting from Wharton, especially PE.

If you are really someone who is suited for a job in consulting or banking - you will end up getting such a job from Wharton. Sometimes it is hard for to see what suitability is, especially when you don't have a ton of exposure to the industry. I have seen good people who are absolutely bad fit for consulting try interviewing and it is painfully obvious to everyone except them.

Anyways, these companies (MC IB etc.) interview a ton of people from Wharton, they have a definite process, if you are diligent you'll get several interviews and at least one offer. You are dealing with a bunch of companies where the difference in jobs is not that much and they all take a ton of new hires - adjusting for yield - they make a ton of offers collectively.

When it comes to HF/PE - well, they are hiring fewer people. They may hire a few people (single digits) over the top N schools they visit. They know yield is high (you are not going to turn them down for any other job except another PE firm) - hence they make fewer offers. These firms have small number of employees - unlike McKinsey or Goldman they can't hire a ton of smart eager beavers and let nature take its course - mold them and let self-selection and do the job.

PE firms are very pedigree conscious and look for very specific background for specific position. Recently I had a friend at a top PE firm who was hiring for an associate focused on healthcare. I recommended an AP from McK who was a physician - my friend came back and said "we have decide to interview only physicians with banking experience". I am surprised he did not say LBO experience. So HBS vs Wharton makes less difference than what you did before in most cases.

On top of that PE recruiting emphasizes fit a lot - it requires a special kind of finesse to get the fit right, e.g. for another healthcare PE position, I knew four people from Wharton who interviewed, four had deep healthcare experience and one was a former top tier PE analyst. Of the healthcare guys - two had Ph.D.s one did not - the non PhD guy was the most polished - so he got the offer - he had the right combination of background for the specific PE niche and spit polish. If one of the Ph.D's or PE guy had the offer, I am sure everyone would have rationalized that they got the job because of that or if one of them had been to a different b school (say HBS or Stanford) - maybe that would seem like the reason.

Anyway, people build a lot of mythology around PE and what school you go to. It is mostly BS - if you have the background for the particular position at the particular firm - you'll be at no disadvantage because you went to Wharton over HBS - of course UNC over HBS might be a different story. My general experience with HBS grads at McK has been that they have good polish - regardless of how smart they are or not. I think being 100% case oriented - HBS selects for good verbal communication and poise.

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-5 12:18
这个校友说的没错，IB或Cosulting招聘都是典型的鸡生蛋蛋生鸡的问题，PE就更极端了。HBS统领PE招聘（绝对数和比例都是）的原因更多来自于她招了几乎同样比例的PE背景的学生。S在美国VC的统治力也多少源自于此。这些人已经经过大学、第一份工作（GS、MS，好吧再加个JPM）的多轮竞争进入PE，上商学院（H/S/W）也只是通向小康的一个必要的点缀，找工作时也不会回头再来投行的sweat shop，相应得也给其他想转PE的IB们增添了挑战。从这方面来说，即使进了H/S/W，也不是人人平等（当然也不是所有都向钱看齐

），竞争只会更加激烈和残酷。

作者: scion 时间: 2010-3-5 12:35
越看越像yy

作者: Tigeroo 时间: 2010-3-5 19:27
你看这个同学哪家学校没有提起就知道他们最Care的或是最Close的竞争者是谁了。

作者: Tigeroo 时间: 2010-3-5 19:34
这个同学应该考虑一下Data mining的问题，这个问题在概率或者Investment之类的课里有。在Leadership课里也有。
下面是09的就业报告，未必完全准，但是应该没有data mining的问题
http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-441498-1-1.html

作者: necroosu 时间: 2010-3-5 19:42

这个同学应该考虑一下Data mining的问题，这个问题在概率或者Investment之类的课里有。在Leadership课里也有。
下面是09的就业报告，未必完全准，但是应该没有data mining的问题
http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-441498-1-1.html

-- by 会员 Tigeroo (2010/3/5 19:34:31)

This thread has no whatsoever business with B-school ranking. We are just posting real reflection from real graduate of Wharton. That's it. I have no clue what your comments would imply here. Let's not stir another debate about ranking. We had enough already.

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