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标题: Ask Jason@沃顿 (my essays inside!) Free essay advice again~ [打印本页]

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-29 03:54
标题: Ask Jason@沃顿 (my essays inside!) Free essay advice again~
There's something wrong with the first thread- it doesn't show up. So I'm starting a new one.

Original thread is here.

http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-373667-1-1.html

Update: the rest of the first page has some posts that I spent quite a lot of time writing out. I paste them here because

1) they provide a view into the life of a business school student, including both the positives but also the negatives. I'm sure many people know of the former (all the great reasons to do business school), but to truly understand "why MBA", I believe you also need to understand "why NOT MBA".

2) they serve as an example of the depth of introspection, self-awareness, and self-honesty you need to have- and that you need to reflect in your essays- in order to be successful in your applications. In this sense, you can consider them examples of business school essays.

Feel free to continue asking me any questions- about Wharton, Chicago, business school in general, etc. I prefer to take all questions here, since that way, everyone can benefit from the advice. This not only saves me time; more importantly, there is a reason why the case method is useful. We often learn well from the examples of others. (After all, that's why many of you are on CD, trying to understand what others are doing, right?) Hence, posting your own examples provides a case from which others can refer to, and learn.

Lastly, I have another thread for me to help you on your essays, if anyone is interested. Thread is here:
http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-398126-1-1.html

PS, feel free to email me at jason.teo.wg10@wharton.upenn.edu. I'm also happy to look at your essays to give you some tips.

Page 3: sample "why Chicago" essay
Page 5: NYTimes article: Are MBA students 'students' or 'customers'?
Page 5: NYTimes article: Dialectical thinking at business schools, led by Rotman.
Page 6: How to write "why" a school
Page 7: My Wharton failure essay
Page 10: My comments on Wharton's new essay questions
Page 13: Why you shouldn't discuss your age in your essays
Page 14: Tips on Wharton's new behavioural interview
Page 15: How to write clearly and concisely- lessons from uchicago
Page 16: Reflections on Wharton's interview
Page 16: Don't blindly go to the best school you can
Page 17: B-sch vs life- or, learning to say no
Page 17: How to ask for cash/ scholarships
Page 17: Why your relationships will be just fine

Page 18: Wharton stops alumni interviewsPage 19: I'll look at your essays for free
Page 20: Which business school?
Page 21: Case Study of two candidates
Page 22: My Wharton Failure Essay
Page 23: My Wharton Cross-Cultural Essay
Page 23: An 8 point framework on how to select (and explain) 'which school'Page 25: Interview Advice
Page 27: I attempt Ross Essay 1
Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-29 03:56
The next two posts, I'm pasting from another thread. They explain my views about having gone to business school without work experience, and enjoying every moment of it.

One can only say what made the most sense to them. For almost everyonethinking of business school, that has tended to be, "let's wait a fewyears". For the majority, that is the right decision for them. However,there are some who also say, "let's wait a few years", simply because"everyone says we should wait a few years", as opposed to, "I havereflected about my own situation, know why for some people it may makesense to go straight after school, but for me it doesn't."

Forexample, both of you, and many of the other posters before, raise VERYGOOD points about recruiting. When I applied for internships inconsulting, I did not get a single interview offer. My resume is reallynothing to shout about. However, I did not come to business school justto look for a job, so while perhaps I got what I deserved, this wasn'ta big deal to me at all. When I talk to alumni, I frequently ask them,what's the #1 thing you wish you had done differently while you were inbusiness school- and 95% of them tell me, "I wish I didn't spend thatmuch time looking for a job." In the class that graduated 2008, almosthalf have already quit the job that they had coming out of school. Whenthese alumni think back about how they spent almost two years lookingfor a job that they only did for less than two years, they findthemselves regretting a lot.

As a person going to school withoutwork experience, I had very different goals. To me, business schoolwasn't just about finding a job, an internship, and so on. I am here tobuild a career. I am here to equip myself with the necessaryintellectual, emotional and soft-skill resources to do well- theintellectual comes from the classes; emotional from learning how tolisten to myself and understand what I really want, as well as to bebrave enough to tell others that I have failed to look for aninternship that they may have found impressive; and soft-skills fromworking with other impressive professionals, in my club involvement.

I'vefound that two types of people tend to think like me- those withoutmuch experience (although not all of them. Some think that they need tocompensate, and work doubly or triply hard to get that internship), andthose with a lot, >10 years of work experience. I've found that manymore experienced people have the same goals as me- they're here not tolook for a job, but to build a career. We agree that it doesn't matteras much whether recruiters want to look for us right now- what mattersmost is whether, in another ten or twenty years, we are in theposition, and have the skills, to succeed in the career that we choose.

Becauseof this, I have had a wonderful, wonderful experience at businessschool, and am well on the way to meeting all my goals. When I reflectback on my experience, I fear that a few years of working experiencewould have changed me in a negative way, because I would be veryfocused on a choice of a job, rather than a career, and I would alsouse a different set of priorities to choose a job, too. Looking at myclassmates, it's stunning how quickly (within one month) they enteredWharton, and immediately abandoned all their diverse dreams of workingin non-profit, in sports, in media, in clean-tech, and so on. Instead,95% of people recruit only for one of the four industries, whether ornot they had wanted to do this before business school- Banking,Consulting, PE, VC.

I would say, out of my >800 classmates,I am probably one of less than a hundred, who is pursuing the exactshort-term career goal that I had written I would pursue in myapplication. And that's been the most important thing to me. I stronglybelieve that if I can't even be honest to myself, I can never expect tobe happy. If it comes with needing to tell others, "I'm not doing thejobs you want to do. It's okay if I'm a failure in your eyes", thenthat's what I have to do. Fact is, I can't please everyone- and given achoice, I'll choose to please myself.

stellaecon> Exactly asyou say, "MBA只能读一次，所以有的时候读了还不如不读。" If I had come here with a few yearsof work experience, and acted exactly like many of my classmates (oreven that friend of yours who had gone straight to Wharton and worriedonly about his job after school) then that to me would have been acomplete waste of time and money. I am thankful for the opportunityI've been given to not worry about competing for a job, and insteadbeing able to focus on the fantastic resources both at Wharton, butalso at UPenn, and I believe this has been the perfect business schoolexperience for myself. I have learnt so much about myself, about life,and about others in the process, and I wouldn't trade this for theworld.

I hope this helps explain why I so passionately persuadeothers to think clearly for themselves. I think it is obvious whywaiting a few years is good for many people- because maturity does tendto increase over time. However, there are inherent advantages toattending business school as a person out of college, who has adifferent set of priorities. Most people don't understand the case forattending straight out of school, because they've never tried it. Ifeel fortunate to have done so.

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-29 03:56
For all of us, we study partly because we want to find a better job. But there is nothing magically different about you just because you got into and graduated from a business school. If business school is first and foremost about finding a better job, and therefore you spend as much time as you can recruiting, then have you really improved as a professional by the end of it? Debatable. This is what I mean by 'we have different goals'.

That piece of paper- MBA- does indeed give you more options. But some people take those job options as the chief and primary goal of business school, because you learn most at a workplace, while some people think that business school is still 'school', and you learn most at 'school'. I fall into the latter camp.

I am going to do sales, in a media company, selling advertisements, after business school. I wanted to work in the media pre-business school, and I want to do sales to learn the economics of the media business. This is extremely realistic for anyone- anyone on this chasedream forum can go and do this right now. You certainly don't need an MBA to do what I am going to do. This is what I wanted to do, so in my second year, I did not even bother looking for another job. I was presented with the option I wanted, and so I took it. It just so happened mine was an easy option, because most people don't want it. All the better for me

But like I said, the MBA has been more than finding a job, which is why perhaps my choice of job may sound strange. I have a specific plan in mind, and that plan lasts for the next 10 years, at least. So I'm not bothered. I got into the MBA programme with the aim to learn, and that's exactly what I've done. At the same time, I realise that part of that may be because of my own naivety, having not worked before, that I think that you can still learn certain things about business from a school environment- be it working with others, classes, and so on. Some people might think this makes me green behind the ears, that I will learn the 'truth' when I start working. They are no doubt right. There is much for me to learn. But at this point, what they see as my curse, my inexperience, I see as a blessing. I think that work experience, too, blinds people to the value of certain types of learning. Inexperience works both ways. I am inexperienced in knowing how to function in a work environment; they are inexperienced in knowing how to learn in a school.

I'm glad we agree that an MBA w/o WE can benefit some, though not all. The same can perhaps be said of any applicant to an MBA programme. Which, interestingly enough, coincides with a key question that all schools ask. Why do you want an MBA, why now, and why at our particular school?

Lastly, to answer your question directly- since I realise that my options are not what most people are looking for. My fellow classmates with no work experience are going to be doing the following things after graduation: PE, Real Estate, Banking, Consulting, General Management, Entrepreneurship. There aren't that many of us, which may explain why other industries (eg. non-profit) are less represented. We have found that the industries that traditionally have high turnover (consulting, banking) are much less open to hiring students with no work experience, since in effect they merely want to 'rent' your services for two years. On the other hand, we have had much better success finding employment in industries like PE, General Management, Entrepreneurship, where they look out for loyalty, for someone to stay a long time- these tend to be more willing to look past our obvious lack of skill-sets and look to our learning ability.

Having said that, some have still been successful in something like consulting. But not me.

I think I truly got what I deserved, because I really wasn't spending as much time as these other guys were doing recruiting. But everybody knows that we only have 24 hours a day... and everyone has to make trade-offs. You can't have it all, and what matters most is that you're happy with what you do have, and what you've had to give up.

BTW, the need to make trade-offs in business school is perhaps something most who haven't pursued an MBA don't understand. When you apply, you look out for, I want to do 'x, y and z'. But the moment you go into business school, you realise the choice becomes, 'I am willing to give up a, b and c'. Everyone starts out thinking they can do 'a, b AND c'. But soon you realise- say in recruiting, you wish you only had to spend one hour a day doing it, but there are people around you spending five hours, ten hours- every free moment, even, networking and doing more. So you realise you gotta do more if you really want to get the job, and you do, and eventually all you're doing is that. I didn't do this, which is why I said, I probably get what I deserve.

Anyway, to link this to my experience, I have chosen to give up something which a lot of my classmates, with more experience, haven't chosen to do- perhaps because they value the learning you can glean at the workplace more than I do. This is where my inexperience comes into play. Nonetheless, as I've mentioned above, I think inexperience works both ways, and it's interesting to me that it is the youngest (most experienced with school) and oldest (most experienced with work) guys at business school who have tended to make similar choices as I have.

Jason

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2009-12-29 04:32
顶！

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-29 06:17
On using essay editing services:

I've talked to the adcom of both Chicago Booth and Wharton, and they say the number 1 problem is that applicants like to use editing services, particularly those from overseas- and they can tell straight away. One issue is, it is often difficult to understand where the lines between 'grammar' and 'structure' and 'story' and 'motivation' are drawn- PARTICULARLY if you are not a native speaker. Some use track changes and then make their own decisions what changes to keep- this is better, but even then, how will track changes help, if you don't know what changes to keep and what to throw out in the first place (which was why you needed help, no?).

Another variation of using editors is this: I've also seen a lot of people not use 'editors', but instead get alumni to help them edit the essays.. While these are not paid services, you end up with the same problem. Your voice gets lost, and a lot of these applicants end up with very poor results. They think that they've "利用现有的资源把眼前的事情做到最好", and are completely shocked when they don't even get an interview.

When you ask others to tell you about your own voice, it is best to get it from a 'friend or family member', because they know you best. But they too have their own voice, hence Yale asks you to not have them 'edit', but merely 'give advice'. Unfortunately instead of asking people who know them best, most applicants instead ask 'editors' or 'alumni' who don't really know them very well indeed. So if you ask, you should ask for 'advice', not 'editing'; and you should ask people who know you well, rather than worry about whether they know the school well. Most people do the complete opposite, on both counts. They ask for 'editing' rather than 'advice', and they ask it of people who don't know them well at all.

It is ALWAYS true that you should "利用现有的资源把眼前的事情做到最好". The problem is you need to understand what is a 资源, and what will hurt you. Most people don't realise that this is not like applying for a job, where you try and figure out what the company is looking for. In this case, it's the opposite- you need to figure out who you are, and THAT'S what schools are looking for. What is normally a “资源” (asking 'insiders'), has, in a business school application context, quite the opposite effect. By asking someone else, you are in effect saying 'I don't know you at all, and you don't know me, but please tell me what seems to matter most to me."

The result of this process? Not surprisingly, not so good. I've seen this over and over again with many otherwise very qualified applicants.

Just my 2 cents worth.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-29 07:01
When you should consider not doing business school:

Original thread here: http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-428991-1-2.html

"我已经快30岁了也，到了我这个年龄，已经很知道人的精力有限，只能focus在一样东西上，跳来跳去绝没有好下场。"

This is true, but also not true. As you've experienced, it's impossible to focus on one thing, when you haven't found what that one thing is. You keep having to self-justify. So yes, it is important to focus, but impossible to do so if you aren't focusing on the right thing. It does seem like you're zeroing in on something, though.

This sounds like a perfect rationale not to do business school. A lot of my classmates came here with a lot of different dreams, but quickly realise that $200K is not a small amount of debt. So once again, the "生活主题全是钱钱钱". That's what you wanted to escape, and that's what you may find yourself imprisoned by once again, when and if you go to business school.

It sounds to me like what you really want to do is the tougher road, and harder. It may look to others like you're a failure. You will earn less money. You are not as trained or as prepared to enter this. Everything about it is harder, and going to business school almost seems like the easier of two roads. Yet you know that you'll be happier doing the hard thing. You've hit on a crucial thing. A lot of people think that going to business school will be tougher- but it really isn't. It's really a lot easier for many of us to go down the road of analytical business, to say that money and status is important, because it seems important to everyone else. What's really difficult is to 'listen to your heart, what matters to you most'. Unfortunately all of us are such an ingrained part of society that we constantly worry about what matters most to society... and often never hear what our heart says. Instead, we mistake what we hear from society as being the only thing that our heart wants.

You're lucky. You're hearing that your heart says it also wants something else (not to say it doesn't want money and status- who DOESN'T want these things? But you've realised that there is also something else that you want more.). That is an incredible gift you've been bestowed. Yet it is a gift that will take great courage to continue to carry. So here I am, to give you support and courage. Go forth and try what you really want to try. It's going to be difficult, it's going to be tough. The odds will be stacked against you. But you only get one life, and if you don't do it it may be even harder to do it in future. We're also a lot quicker learners and a lot smarter than we think. So yes it'll be hard, but given your strong passion and your ability to learn, there's a good chance you'll succeed.

Edit: PS, to use an analogy, since you're from a Hedge Fund background. With higher risk (higher beta), comes higher reward (higher expected return). If you join the fashion industry, that will mean far higher risk, but higher reward will come in the form of your happiness.

Good luck.

作者: wordance 时间: 2009-12-29 09:15
ding!

作者: satancn 时间: 2009-12-29 10:08
ding

作者: withmoon 时间: 2009-12-29 10:53

When you should consider not doing business school:

Original thread here: http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-428991-1-2.html

"我已经快30岁了也，到了我这个年龄，已经很知道人的精力有限，只能focus在一样东西上，跳来跳去绝没有好下场。"

This is true, but also not true. As you've experienced, it's impossible to focus on one thing, when you haven't found what that one thing is. You keep having to self-justify. So yes, it is important to focus, but impossible to do so if you aren't focusing on the right thing. It does seem like you're zeroing in on something, though.

This sounds like a perfect rationale not to do business school. A lot of my classmates came here with a lot of different dreams, but quickly realise that $200K is not a small amount of debt. So once again, the "生活主题全是钱钱钱". That's what you wanted to escape, and that's what you may find yourself imprisoned by once again, when and if you go to business school.

It sounds to me like what you really want to do is the tougher road, and harder. It may look to others like you're a failure. You will earn less money. You are not as trained or as prepared to enter this. Everything about it is harder, and going to business school almost seems like the easier of two roads. Yet you know that you'll be happier doing the hard thing. You've hit on a crucial thing. A lot of people think that going to business school will be tougher- but it really isn't. It's really a lot easier for many of us to go down the road of analytical business, to say that money and status is important, because it seems important to everyone else. What's really difficult is to 'listen to your heart, what matters to you most'. Unfortunately all of us are such an ingrained part of society that we constantly worry about what matters most to society... and often never hear what our heart says. Instead, we mistake what we hear from society as being the only thing that our heart wants.

You're lucky. You're hearing that your heart says it also wants something else (not to say it doesn't want money and status- who DOESN'T want these things? But you've realised that there is also something else that you want more.). That is an incredible gift you've been bestowed. Yet it is a gift that will take great courage to continue to carry. So here I am, to give you support and courage. Go forth and try what you really want to try. It's going to be difficult, it's going to be tough. The odds will be stacked against you. But you only get one life, and if you don't do it it may be even harder to do it in future. We're also a lot quicker learners and a lot smarter than we think. So yes it'll be hard, but given your strong passion and your ability to learn, there's a good chance you'll succeed.

Edit: PS, to use an analogy, since you're from a Hedge Fund background. With higher risk (higher beta), comes higher reward (higher expected return). If you join the fashion industry, that will mean far higher risk, but higher reward will come in the form of your happiness.

Good luck.

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2009/12/29 7:01:30)

很有见地的一篇回复，衷心谢谢Jason。受益良多。
因为不遵从社会法则（eg. mba-ib-vc/pe-startup)的代价是巨大的，你有可能工作比别人苦，社会地位比别人低，挣得比别人少，就是为了生活的意义和快乐。
但是，有没有想过还有一个办法得到快乐：就是假装。假装社会法则可以给自己带来最大的快乐，假装喜欢金融，假装很有leadership，假装喜欢DCF，假装喜欢拍客户的马屁，假装金钱是衡量一切的标尺，假装去个gs就是成功。
no judgement，哪种生活会更好呢？

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-30 06:22

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2009/12/29 7:01:30)

-- by 会员 withmoon (2009/12/29 10:53:29)

There are some people for whom such careers are indeed wonderful. There are others for whom career is really not as important as say, family, and so by doing what others think is important, and earning more money, you are 'doing the harder thing' by sacrificing yourself so that others may do well.

But for a lot of people, we are simply lost. We don't know what we want, but we know exactly what is expected of us. And so we do what is expected, hoping that others will tell us what it is that is important to us. We keep going down this road again and again, and are unable to give ourselves 肯定. Instead we keep looking for it in others. Not surprisingly, we never find it, because whenever we think we've achieved something that is expected, something new- something more- is expected. We are never able to find peace, because ultimately peace can only come from yourself, and not from someone else. You may decide that your 'peace' will come when someone else has peace- eg. your family, your children, your family. Sure. But I doubt 'society' matters SO MUCH to us, that we really think that we can get peace just because society gives us 肯定. "Society" is not the people we care about- we merely use it as a way to give us 肯定, because we are lost.

The truth is, everyone is unsure, and lost, to a certain extent. We will make mistakes- none of us are perfect. All we can do is try to be aware of the temptation of substituting what is important to someone else- especially when it is someone else (eg. vague notion of 'society') whom you don't really care about; for what is important to you.

Lastly, what's worst of all is that we often don't know what is truly important to someone else. We merely THINK we know. For instance, my own parents constantly tell me money is important, it is important to have a good job for a good family. True. And so I work hard to try and get there. But is money and a stable job really the most important thing to my parents? I don't think so. I believe that at the end of the day, if I tell them, "Mom, Dad, I simply cannot be a banker. I will be a lot more happy doing fashion, although I will earn less. I need your love and support. Can you support me?" I believe that, because they love me, they will. So often times, what you THINK is important to others, really isn't the case. If they care about you, what is most important to them is that you be happy- sure, they have ideas on what they think might make you happy, based on their own experiences. But at the end of the day, when you love someone, you'll want him to be the best he can be, and not merely decide what he SHOULD be, based on yourself.

PS. I didn't used to think in this way. Going to business school was the push I needed, for me to realise that it's not a 'judgment' or a 'choice' between caring for yourself and caring about others. Of course I care for others- I just choose to care about those close to me, and not 'society'; and I choose to care for them not necessarily by just listening to what they say, but by understanding why they say it.

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-30 06:23
On 'selling yourself', and being 'specific' in your application. Another poster wrote this:

在写作Essay中常出现的一些常见错误
在大家写作MBA Essay的过程中，通常会出现一些很常见的错误，我们会定期将我们修改过程中遇到的一些问题给大家讲一下，希望能对大家的Essay 写作会有帮助。如果你在写作Essay过程中有什么问题需要我们来回答的话，我们也会很乐意将你的问题反馈到我们的Editor，我们的Editor 会尽快给你答复的。
-I think the number 1 mistake is being too general. I notice this with writers of every level. When you write these admissions essays or resumes, you want to be specific.

eople remember specific examplesand stories a lot more than general statements. For example, it is notgood to say "I will be a great graduate student because I am smart." It is much more powerful to say "I will be a great graduate student,because I finished in the top 5 on a competitive university entranceexam, I achieved high honors every semester in school, etc." So, insummary, be specific and sell yourself a lot!

Here is my response:

I don't agree with being too general. If anything, most essays I've read are too specific. It is indeed not good to say, "I will be a great graduate student because I am smart." But neither is it good to say, "I will be a great graduate student,because I finished in the top 5 on a competitive university entrance exam, I achieved high honors every semester in school, etc."

The latter sentence is what the resume is for. You're wasting space and adding nothing by regurgitating this. In fact, you may be hurting yourself. Hiding behind your achievements shows weakness. The more you try to 'sell your achievements', the more I think, you're afraid that if you don't back something up with achievements, I won't believe you- I wonder what you're trying to hide...

Instead, the way to write good essays is to be self-reflective, to explain the decisions you've made, and how you made them. The 'how' and 'why' is far more important than the 'what'. Instead of TELLING them that you're smart- be it by saying 'I'm smart', or by saying 'I finished in the top 5'- you should SHOW it to them, in the way you think and write. So instead a good sentence might go, "I believe I will be a good graduate student because my experiences have showed me that I still have much to learn, especially in the following ways...". This shows humility, it shows self-confidence, and it shows that you are aware of your own failures and short-comings. Finally, it also shows that you know that to be a good student, you first have to admit that you LACK something. Your approach suggests the opposite. If you're so smart, and so good, why do you even need an MBA in the first place? I've read countless essays that say, "I'm the next world genius in finance... which is why I need to come to Wharton to do finance." And I think: "yeah, if you're so great, I'm having trouble understanding why you need to come here to learn anything else!"

This, btw, is why many schools ask you to discuss a failure, which can be just as revealing as an achievement.

Another way many applicants are way too specific: "I want to come to Wharton to do this class under this professor". All this shows is that you've googled our curriculum, and you know there are classes here that look interesting. But that's true of every school. How does this differentiate our school from others? It doesn't. You need something more general, like, "the classes at Wharton blend the case method with a more theoretical approach, which suits my style of learning."

But everyone has a different writing style- perhaps a more specific approach will work for you and your editors; it doesn't for me.

Jason

Original thread here:
http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-429646-1-1.html

作者: withmoon 时间: 2009-12-30 10:57
Hiding behind your achievements shows weakness.

作者: CDi 时间: 2009-12-30 14:15
Volunteer?

无论是什么, 你应该很不错.

作者: louis_huang 时间: 2009-12-30 20:11
Hi Jason,

I invite my part-time boss to write a recommendation for me. Since he can only write in Chinese, I ask a third-party to translate it into English. Should I explain this to school and provide the Chinese version for their reference? I do not see any space in the application system for me to provide additional materials. Want to have your advise! Thanks

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-31 05:46
CDi> what volunteer?

louis_huang> Sounds reasonable to me.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-31 05:46

我先将我们的editor Philip 的建议总结一下，方便大家的阅读，Philip 说在写作Essay 过程中有几个常出现的错误，
Number 1 mistake is being too general.
Number 2 mistake is that many are too wordy.
Number 3 is that many essays have word or page limits. This means every sentence should have meaning and contribute something to your essay. Sometimes I see sentences that don't really say anything. If you have sentences like this, delete them.
Number 4 is that resumes that aren't very consistent. By this, I mean the fonts, the font sizes, the alignment, all of these things should be consistent and look nice. They should not change in the same document.
Number 5 is to explain things that aren't self-explanatory. If you write that won an award or if you use initials, most people will not understand what those initials mean if you do not write them out.
然后再Number 1 mistake 中 Philip比较了一下 "I will be a great graduate student because I am smart." 和 "I will be a great graduate student, because I finished in the top 5 on a competitive university entrance exam, I achieved high honors every semester in school, etc." 两个句子。他举这两个例子的目的是想说明specific 的例子比general 的例子更加有说服力。
Jason的意见主要是不同意 Philip提到的Number 1 mistake, 对其他几条建议倒是没有什么问题。Jason 认为 “perhaps a more specific approach will work for you and your editors; it doesn't for me” . 其实在Jason 自己举的例子中 Another way many applicants are way too specific: "I want to come to Wharton to do this class under this professor". All this shows is that you've googled our curriculum, and you know there are classes here that look interesting. But that's true of every school. How does this differentiate our school from others? It doesn't. You need something more general, like, "the classes at Wharton blend the case method with a more theoretical approach, which suits my style of learning." 我认为他的前一个例子应该是 more general，因为大部分申请者都知道某个学校的某个professor, 所以在写why school的时候都会用到这一点，这样就非常的general而没有闪光点, 我们认为申请者应根据自己的特点和背景再结合学校的特长来写 more specific 的Essay，这也是他后一个例子中谈到的。过一会我会将我们Best Writing 的 editor Philip 的意见贴上来。同时希望这些讨论能对大家的Essay 写作有帮助。

I don't agree with being too general. If anything, most essays I've read are too specific. It is indeed not good to say, "I will be a great graduate student because I am smart." But neither is it good to say, "I will be a great graduate student,because I finished in the top 5 on a competitive university entrance exam, I achieved high honors every semester in school, etc."

The latter sentence is what the resume is for. You're wasting space and adding nothing by regurgitating this. In fact, you may be hurting yourself. Hiding behind your achievements shows weakness. The more you try to 'sell your achievements', the more I think, you're afraid that if you don't back something up with achievements, I won't believe you- I wonder what you're trying to hide...

Instead, the way to write good essays is to be self-reflective, to explain the decisions you've made, and how you made them. The 'how' and 'why' is far more important than the 'what'. Instead of TELLING them that you're smart- be it by saying 'I'm smart', or by saying 'I finished in the top 5'- you should SHOW it to them, in the way you think and write. So instead a good sentence might go, "I believe I will be a good graduate student because my experiences have showed me that I still have much to learn, especially in the following ways...". This shows humility, it shows self-confidence, and it shows that you are aware of your own failures and short-comings. Finally, it also shows that you know that to be a good student, you first have to admit that you LACK something. Your approach suggests the opposite. If you're so smart, and so good, why do you even need an MBA in the first place? I've read countless essays that say, "I'm the next world genius in finance... which is why I need to come to Wharton to do finance." And I think: "yeah, if you're so great, I'm having trouble understanding why you need to come here to learn anything else!"

This, btw, is why many schools ask you to discuss a failure, which can be just as revealing as an achievement.

Another way many applicants are way too specific: "I want to come to Wharton to do this class under this professor". All this shows is that you've googled our curriculum, and you know there are classes here that look interesting. But that's true of every school. How does this differentiate our school from others? It doesn't. You need something more general, like, "the classes at Wharton blend the case method with a more theoretical approach, which suits my style of learning."

But everyone has a different writing style- perhaps a more specific approach will work for you and your editors; it doesn't for me.

Jason
-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2009/12/30 6:10:34)

-- by 会员小罗罗 (2009/12/31 0:05:40)

Sure, my negative example is 'general in that most applicants will do this'; but most applicants don't know that, they think they are being 'specific' by giving details like names and classes. But your sentence might be guilty of the same error. Applicants mistake 'listing my achievements as a student' as a 'specific thing'. In fact, everyone will have some good results to show- and everyone will do this in their resumes already. So according to your logic, this is a 'general' thing that may not differentiate many students. You'll be surprised how many students apply with stellar academic backgrounds.

Instead, the more 'specific' point, that differentiates one student from another, is his thinking and his rationale, since no two people think the same way. A better sentence- fitting with your logic- is, "I am a good student because I think in a mature way, and I will show you how I think by clearly explaining my 'specific' rationales for a career; for a school; for the choices I've made... and if you need more general details about the results to this- afterall, everyone has some results to show- please check my resume."

I agree with your other points.

Having said that, this 'better sentence', ("I will be a great graduate student, because I finished in the top 5 on a competitive university entrance exam, I achieved high honors every semester in school, etc.") in my opinion actually violates mistake 3. Like I said, this is merely repeating what is in the resume- it is a waste of space, in that sense, and instead you would be better off saying something else.

I realise this is not addressing your original mistake #1 anymore- general vs specific. But insofar as people look to your examples to understand what you mean by general vs specific, I felt I had to address your examples because I do not believe CDers should look at the two sentences and say, 'yes, this other one is better, and let's use that', because that misses a big mistake that I have seen, that perhaps you might not have seen in the essays you've looked at. In my opinion, a good candidate triumphs his weaknesses as much as his strengths, because he knows that awareness of one's weakness gives you the potential to improve on them. A poor candidate hides behind his strengths.

That would be my mistake #1, and to me is a very useful thing that many candidates should bear in mind. To 'sell your weakness' in an essay is a VERY counter-intuitive thing to do, which is why I believe it is of value for a CDer to understand this. Many of your mistakes- like proper formatting- are in my mind a easier to correct, and also more intuitive. Although oftentimes, it is easy to accept the principle, but difficult to truly execute, like how your example could be read as violating your own rules- depending on the context. I've interpreted them in a particular context here, but there are other contexts in which your example would work perfectly fine. For instance, if an important part of how and why you made certain decisions, is linked to the process by which you had gotten those academic honours.
In summary,

1) I have a different mistake #1 that I wish to highlight, because I believe that many applicants make it, and they don't realise that it is a problem: that hiding behind achievements shows weakness.

2) I try to show this by using your example, which while in a certainspecific context might be the right thing to say, I've interpreted in adifferent context, one where 'let's use specific achievements tojustify our sentences' is in fact a show of weakness.

3) Because everyone has specific achievements, listing one's 'specificachievements' can in fact be seen as a 'too general' approach. Afterall, a lot of students can say, "I won academic honours in school".Instead, the 'specific' approach might be to focus on your reasoningprocess- since everyone thinks differently.

4) Lastly, since this same information of honours, etc are also in the resume, this might violate your own mistake #3. Space is indeed precious; why repeat information that is already somewhere else in the application?

Jason

作者: newborn2009 时间: 2009-12-31 06:29
Another way many applicants are way too specific: "I want to come to Wharton to do this class under this professor". All this shows is that you've googled our curriculum, and you know there are classes here that look interesting. But that's true of every school. How does this differentiate our school from others? It doesn't. You need something more general, like, "the classes at Wharton blend the case method with a more theoretical approach, which suits my style of learning."
--------------------

Don't agree on this point. Mix of case and lecture is not differentiating Wharton from other schools. As far as I know, some other schools also offer such teaching style.

Besides, I think as long as applicants know clearly what they want out of academic learning, mentioning classes/professors should be proper. I think the fit is between what you need and what the school can offer. Sometimes, the specific details could show your sincere interest.

哈哈，个人意见仅供讨论，已删掉例子，以免误导

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-31 07:45

Another way many applicants are way too specific: "I want to come to Wharton to do this class under this professor". All this shows is that you've googled our curriculum, and you know there are classes here that look interesting. But that's true of every school. How does this differentiate our school from others? It doesn't. You need something more general, like, "the classes at Wharton blend the case method with a more theoretical approach, which suits my style of learning."
--------------------

Don't agree on this point. Mix of case and lecture is not differentiating Wharton from other schools. As far as I know, some other schools also offer such teaching style.

Besides, I think as long as applicants know clearly what they want out of academic learning, mentioning classes/professors should be proper. I think the fit is between what you need and what the school can offer. Sometimes, the specific details could show your sincere interest.

哈哈，个人意见仅供讨论，已删掉例子，以免误导

-- by 会员 newborn2009 (2009/12/31 6:29:16)

Of course other schools offer such teaching styles. You would expect a good style to be copied.

The difference between my second sentence and my first one, is that the second one involves a choice that the school has made. A school chooses to go with a certain style, and that also means it is choosing to give up another style. In turn, giving up a certain style means that they are giving up a certain group of students, since this style will be suitable for some students, but not all.

In contrast, 'this school has this class and this teacher' is much less of a 'choice that a school makes', and depends on things like, which teacher is on holiday.. which visiting scholar is there... etc. What IS a choice linked to curriculum is potentially- 'do we have a fixed core?' Again, this is a meaningful choice for you to consider when thinking about fit NOT because nobody else does it this way; but because by choosing one way, the school is giving up another equally good way of moving forward.

In short, a school's choice of a way to educate is meaningful and differentiated not when it has not been copied. (Indeed, one may argue the opposite- if its way to educate is so good, others will quickly copy it). Instead, it is a point of 'differentiation' because making that choice means that the school (and others who will copy that school) have to GIVE UP a certain target audience who might prefer another method. In this case giving up a market has its benefits- instead you can focus on ensuring that those who DO choose that school, are in a programme that is a better fit for their wants and needs.

This is what schools are looking for. This perhaps is point number 2 to look out for (point number 1 being, 'a strong applicant knows and is able to admit/talk about his weaknesses'). When writing "why a school", look for choices the school had made, that had made it give up another set of equally valid choices. By giving up one set of students, the school can better target another set. Your job (by understanding their choices) is to show that you are the student that they aim to target.

Jason

作者: newborn2009 时间: 2009-12-31 08:10
每次看Jason 的回帖都有些似是而非的晕，今天有些明白了，原来是Jason同学的理论水平太高了，到达了哲学思辨的境界。

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-31 08:21

每次看Jason 的回帖都有些似是而非的晕，今天有些明白了，原来是Jason同学的理论水平太高了，到达了哲学思辨的境界。

-- by 会员 newborn2009 (2009/12/31 8:10:36)

This has nothing to do with philosophy. I learnt this at business school, actually. If your strategy doesn't involve trade-offs, anybody can copy it without cost. It is not a source of competitive advantage. Similarly, marketing people know that in order to sell a product, you need to target it specifically to a certain segment, and give up other segments. Walmart doesn't try to go after those who will shop at LVMH; LVMH doesn't want the Walmart client in their stores either. If you try to be everything to everyone, you fail.

Simple business concepts.. appropriately applied, to the business school application process.

作者: newborn2009 时间: 2009-12-31 08:41
you're right, it's not about philosophy.

But you've dexterously applied economic/marketing theory to explain essay writing, this is great and easy to understand. Thanks.

作者: nanirina 时间: 2009-12-31 16:09
very good points Jason

　Thank you for offering your insights and helping out fellow applicants

作者: shuxuehai 时间: 2009-12-31 16:41

每次看Jason 的回帖都有些似是而非的晕，今天有些明白了，原来是Jason同学的理论水平太高了，到达了哲学思辨的境界。

-- by 会员 newborn2009 (2009/12/31 8:10:36)

I do have the same feeling. However, it becomes clearer for me if I continue to think what Jason says and writes for several days.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-1 01:36
An applicant to UChicago college answers the essay "Why UChicago". He responds, "ask not why!" This is taken from an email sent by UChicago admissions dean to all applicants. PS: This is for UChicago, not Chicago Booth. A business school essay will look nothing like this. Nonetheless, it shows you the spirit of UChicago. Also, notice that, just like with bschool applicants, the dean ends his message with.. "be yourself".

------------------------
Dear xxx,

I am sending you the following essay by one of your classmates with the hope that it lightens your mood, reduces any end-of-the-year stress and inspires your creative juices in completing your applications. Enjoy the essay and the holidays!

"Dear University of Chicago,

It fills me up with that gooey sap you feel late at night when I think about things that are really special to me about you. Sometimes I just hunger for more, but I keep that a secret. The mail you send is such a tease; I like to imagine additional words on the page. Words like "you're accepted" or "you're awesome!" or "don't worry, she still loves you!" but I know they're all lies. You never called after that one time, I visited you thrice, but you never come around anymore. Tell me, was I just one in a line of many? Was I just another supple "applicant" to you, looking for a place to live, looking for someone to teach me the ways of the world? The closeness between us was beautiful, it couldn't have been just me that felt it, I know you felt it too. The intimacy was akin to that of scholar and original text, your depth as a person is astounding! To be honest, I must confess I had already dreamt of a rosy future together, one filled with late nights and long discussions over the Gothic era and the ethical stage of Kierkegaard, we would watch the sunset together and spend every Christmas snuggled in blankets. Eventually we would get older, I would become a well-educated corporate lawyer and you would enrich yourself within the domain of human knowledge. Your cup overfloweth with academic genius, pour a little on me. You're legendary for it, they all told me it would never work out between us, but I had hope. I had so much hope; I replied to your adorable letters and put up with your puns. I knew going into it that you would be an expensive one to keep around, I accounted for all that; I understand someone of your caliber and taste.

And now you inquire as to my wishes? They're simple, accept me for who I am! Why can't you just love and not ask why? Not ask about my assets or my past? I'm living in the now, I'm waiting for you to catch up, but you're too caught up in my past, I offer us a future together, not a past to dwell upon. Whenever I'm around you, I just get that tingle deep inside me that tells me you're the one; you have that air of brilliance and ingenuity that I crave in a person, you're so mature and sophisticated, originality is really your strongest and most admirable trait. I wish we could be together, I still think in my heart of hearts we were meant to be, but you have to meet me halfway, dear. I'm on one knee here with tears welling up in my eyes, the fireworks are timed and ready to light up the night sky for you, just say 'I accept...you.'

Always,

Rohan"

P.S. Rohan was admitted to UChicago last week and will be joining us in the fall. I can't wait to meet him.

P.P.S. This was in response to the question: How does the University of Chicago, as you know it now, satisfy your desire for a particular kind of learning, community and future? DO NOT see this as a blueprint, but one of many types of essays we get. Be yourself!

Best regards,
James Nondorf
Vice President
Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid
The University of Chicago

作者: newborn2009 时间: 2010-1-1 01:46
haha, 比情书还酸阿。funny guy。

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2010-1-1 03:49

An applicant to UChicago college answers the essay "Why UChicago". He responds, "ask not why!" This is taken from an email sent by UChicago admissions dean to all applicants. PS: This is for UChicago, not Chicago Booth. A business school essay will look nothing like this. Nonetheless, it shows you the spirit of UChicago. Also, notice that, just like with bschool applicants, the dean ends his message with.. "be yourself".

------------------------
Dear xxx,

I am sending you the following essay by one of your classmates with the hope that it lightens your mood, reduces any end-of-the-year stress and inspires your creative juices in completing your applications. Enjoy the essay and the holidays!

"Dear University of Chicago,

It fills me up with that gooey sap you feel late at night when I think about things that are really special to me about you. Sometimes I just hunger for more, but I keep that a secret. The mail you send is such a tease; I like to imagine additional words on the page. Words like "you're accepted" or "you're awesome!" or "don't worry, she still loves you!" but I know they're all lies. You never called after that one time, I visited you thrice, but you never come around anymore. Tell me, was I just one in a line of many? Was I just another supple "applicant" to you, looking for a place to live, looking for someone to teach me the ways of the world? The closeness between us was beautiful, it couldn't have been just me that felt it, I know you felt it too. The intimacy was akin to that of scholar and original text, your depth as a person is astounding! To be honest, I must confess I had already dreamt of a rosy future together, one filled with late nights and long discussions over the Gothic era and the ethical stage of Kierkegaard, we would watch the sunset together and spend every Christmas snuggled in blankets. Eventually we would get older, I would become a well-educated corporate lawyer and you would enrich yourself within the domain of human knowledge. Your cup overfloweth with academic genius, pour a little on me. You're legendary for it, they all told me it would never work out between us, but I had hope. I had so much hope; I replied to your adorable letters and put up with your puns. I knew going into it that you would be an expensive one to keep around, I accounted for all that; I understand someone of your caliber and taste.

And now you inquire as to my wishes? They're simple, accept me for who I am! Why can't you just love and not ask why? Not ask about my assets or my past? I'm living in the now, I'm waiting for you to catch up, but you're too caught up in my past, I offer us a future together, not a past to dwell upon. Whenever I'm around you, I just get that tingle deep inside me that tells me you're the one; you have that air of brilliance and ingenuity that I crave in a person, you're so mature and sophisticated, originality is really your strongest and most admirable trait. I wish we could be together, I still think in my heart of hearts we were meant to be, but you have to meet me halfway, dear. I'm on one knee here with tears welling up in my eyes, the fireworks are timed and ready to light up the night sky for you, just say 'I accept...you.'

Always,

Rohan"

P.S. Rohan was admitted to UChicago last week and will be joining us in the fall. I can't wait to meet him.

P.P.S. This was in response to the question: How does the University of Chicago, as you know it now, satisfy your desire for a particular kind of learning, community and future? DO NOT see this as a blueprint, but one of many types of essays we get. Be yourself!

Best regards,
James Nondorf
Vice President
Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid
The University of Chicago

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/1 1:36:20)

Eye-opening! I see its own ingenuity. His passion knocked the door open.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-1 04:41
And like I said, sometimes showing weakness is a strength

作者: Biology 时间: 2010-1-1 10:44
Wow, this is giving me a totally new insight into UChicago

Though it may not because of this single essey that he got in, it was really the personality, sincerity, creativity, and courage helped him stand out in this particular passage.

作者: nanirina 时间: 2010-1-1 17:48
That UChicago essay is really an eye-opener. I am awed by his creativity and courage. He really showed his unique side. Too bad I know I can never write like him but hey, I should just be myself right? hehe

作者: Zoolantz 时间: 2010-1-2 13:35
It's a fun read, but I fail to see how it demonstrate the spirit of the University. Are you implying that UChicago embraces creativity? I assume this application essay is for undergrad, correct? I agree that a business school application should be nothing like it. I see two issues with this style of writing, which can be lethal when used in applying to a business school. 1) Lack of content - other than the brilliant writing and creativity, I only learned one thing about the applicant, which is his career aspiration of becoming a corporate lawyer. 2) Way to generic - I bet this guy is using this exact love letter knocking on the doors of Harvard, NorthWestern and so on.

But again, it does make him standout from the crowd. I too realize the fact that adcom are also human. When you read 50 informational but yet boring essays all day long and everyday, something like this can certainly lighten up your mood. I have been incorporating some creativity into my essay writing lately. I want them to be enjoyable, not forgettable. We'll see how that work out. I recommend you guys try the same.

作者: Zoolantz 时间: 2010-1-2 14:07
Hi Jason, I find your posts fascinating. I especially enjoy reading about your thoughts on making more money versus doing something enjoyable but make less. You kept saying 'we'. Which group were you referring to? MBA students without work experience? or people pursuing MBA education as a whole? I was a bit confused there.

Just a quick comment on how you feel you (people with no pre-MBA work experience) tend to have similar view on internship and expectation in a MBA with people with >10 yrs exp. In my opinion, it all comes down to money. Those older folks probably are pretty well off. My guess is that they probably had some entrepreneurial experiences and just wanting to recharge and work on something even bigger after graduating from Wharton. Well, on the other end, you young kids fresh out of school (well, again back into school) haven't gotten a taste of the hardship of real life yet. What is hardship you ask? Your older peers can tell you that they are carrying sh*t load of mortgages, car loans and now $200k student loan. That's why they doing everything they can to get that internship which subsequently can lead to the high paying job at the end to help pay off their debt.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-2 18:33
Zoolantz, re: the UChicago essay> This essay may not work for Harvard or NorthWestern. UChicago embraces the life of the mind. An aspiring lawyer does not need to read Kierkegaard. Neither does an aspiring lawyer tend to need to write in such a passionate, poetic way; comparing UChicago to a lover that has scorned him- I expect such a style of writing will not work for a lawyer.

What makes this letter so unique, and so effective, is that 90% of applicants will not even THINK about something like that, because they will consider it 'lethal'. In fact, while this is for undergrad, I pasted it here because there is a certain honesty, a certain message that is important to understand in a business school application too- even more so, there, actually. The message here is, 'this is who I am, a weak person who needs you to complete me, and I am at your mercy. Take me as I am'. This shows amazing humility, self-awareness, and confidence- all traits that you'll need to be successful in your business school essays.

Trying to be 'creative' just because you think the adcom likes it is in fact the opposite approach. While this essay may look like it's trying to accomplish it, it is in fact effective not because he is attempting to write what the adcom wants to read. Rather, he is writing exactly what HE wants to write, and what he feels, and putting himself at the mercy of the adcom. If this means his essay is forgettable (after all, 'generic' tends to be forgettable), then so be it.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-2 18:52
zoolantz, re: my other posts> Some of "we" refers to people in general, some refers to the poster I was responding to. I apologise for the confusion.

Age, while being correlated with wealth, does not necessarily have a direct relationship with the latter. Many of my classmates of that age have families, have mortgages- if anything, they have MORE financial need than my other classmates with less work experience.

In addition, I fully agree- looking at their experience and their needs, for instance, shows me that there is much to worry about financially in life. However, I also like to take a step back, and think about how I am part of the elite in the world. I am, in the duration of my lifetime, probably going to be an earner in the top 5-10% of the entire world. I am tremendously blessed.

While I need a way to live, and transport; I do not necessarily need to live in a mansion, I do not need a luxury car (or, really, perhaps even a car at all). These are pleasures and they are conveniences that I will surely enjoy, but I am keenly aware that there is a price to getting them. No matter what job I get out of school, I will not be bankrupt. I constantly hear my fellow classmates justify to themselves that they NEED a $200K / yr banking job to pay off their loans.. and I think, really? What happens if you live on 'only' $50K a year? Will you be bankrupt? Will you be living on the streets? Will you have not enough to feed yourself? These are extreme examples, yes, but I like to think of them, so that I have a little perspective for how blessed I am, that with my qualifications I will never have to worry on the scale that some people do, worrying about their day to day existence.

The question to answer then becomes, am I willing to give up what it takes so that I can live that much more a materially comfortable life? At least right now in my life, the answer is closer to no. I don't want to live on the streets, but I also don't need to be rich. If someone pays off their loans in 2 years, I can take 10 years, 20 years- no problem. I am not worried. Like I said, my plan is not one that extends over 1 or 2 years, but more like 10, 20 years.

Part of this naivety stems from my inexperience as a new graduate, as you have pointed out. But I see this- my greatest weakness- as also potentially a source of my greatest strength. I think many of my other classmates don't see it this way because their 'experience' of hardship; as well as their determination to overcome it; has made some of them forget how fortunate they are.

I respect your opinion that it all comes down to money. It undoubtedly does. I just have a different idea from you of how much I'll need to survive. I also believe, as you do, that this will change. My views will be tested as I begin to experience material hardship once I start working. And this, BTW, is why I think that this has been the perfect time for me to do business school. Doing it now has allowed me to be exposed and become aware of this, before my views start to change. After all, I too am just a simple person, who is strongly affected and influenced by my surroundings. In a few years, I have no doubt that I will think exactly like many of my classmates. I only hope that, having been forewarned sooner, I can remind myself at that time, to understand exactly at what level of wealth I should stop trying to get more money, in order that I can apply myself to some other things that I find meaningful.

作者: Zoolantz 时间: 2010-1-3 00:56
Jason, I envy your youthful thinking. In fact, you remind me of a younger me. Now this make me sound so old

I'm glad to see that you truly appreciate how fortunate you are. I'm not so sure how many people here at the forum realize this. Compare to the majority of the population, we will most certainly do well, if not exceptionally well, in life regardless the outcome of MBA applications. I can now understand why you could make it into Wharton even without formal fulltime work experience. I guess this is the message you have been trying to pass down. I feel you got in because you demonstrated in your application that you truly understand your strengths and weaknesses. You remained true to your beliefs, despite the fact that they may be viewed by someone older as immature or naive. This must be how you successfully differentiated yourself.

作者: iceccn 时间: 2010-1-3 02:45
Hi Jason,
I've an urgent question regarding recommendation letter. In Wharton's application, I need to choose the relationship of recommender and applicant. The one who provides recommendation letter for me was my cross supervisor in company's structure, but had much more interaction with me than my direct supervisor (strange structure yet true...). Also, my direct supervisor has left the firm and new big boss just arrived and didn't know me well. Shall I choose direct supervisor or other supervisor in this case?
Thanks a lot!

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-3 03:53
Zoolantz> Yes, that's my point. The true 'differentiation' is not to show that you are special, but to show self-knowledge. In my case, I know I'm young, and I know there are parts of me that are immature. But you can't rush growing up, and while I need to be aware of my weaknesses, I also can try to view them as strengths. However, this is true of someone of any age. An older person views those younger as immature. A younger person view older people as stubborn, because once one gets older one has more experience, but that experience sets one in his/her ways so he/she finds it harder to learn new things. So regardless of our age, it is an eternal process in understanding our own strengths and weaknesses, and in learning from others at different stages of their lives, both to remind us what we once were but have now given up (and perhaps now being the time to reconsider whether you should revisit that), but also to learn from different individuals who think differently. I may be younger than you, but that's not the only thing that defines my thoughts. I am from a certain country, a certain background, a certain family.. So yes, we look at people younger than us and that reminds us of ourselves at an earlier age, but even then we have much to learn from how they are different from us not just in age alone.

This is the whole point of diversity, and why it is valued in schools. Most people think, "I am diverse because I am unique, because I can contribute this or that". That's not true. Everyone is unique. In fact, diversity becomes useful when the opposite happens. When people think, "I have strengths, but I also have weaknesses. Looking at others can remind me of myself, which is a good chance to reflect, but others are also different individuals, and I should try to see things from their perspective." If everyone thinks this way, then diversity will have value. If everyone thinks, "I am diverse in this way.. come and learn from me", then there will be no need for diversity because nobody will be learning from others.

PS, this is why schools seldom ask you, 'how will you add to diversity', with a view to seeing you say, "I am special in the following ways..". They don't do this because: 1) that is what the resume is for. 2) how you are special is something THEY decide, not you. Many students I've met try to differentiate themselves from other Chinese applicants, not realising that in the mind of the adcom.. "I am not typical Chinese" may not be diverse, because perhaps they are exactly looking for a classic Chinese applicant, because that will look most 'diverse' within the entire class? Anyway, even this is speculation. I'm just saying you can't second-guess what they are looking for. 3) Indeed, perhaps the biggest problem is that they're not even 'looking' for any one profile in the first place.

So, instead they focus on finding out what kind of an introspective person you are, so they'll know if you can contribute to an environment where diversity will have educational value.

Here is an article from the NYTimes you may find interesting. They mention the accepting of diversity of viewpoints being very important for an older adult, in order to learn.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/education/edlife/03adult-t.html
Quote: "Teaching new facts should not be the focus of adult education, she says. Instead, continued brain development and a richer form of learning may require that you “bump up against people and ideas” that are different. In a history class, that might mean reading multiple viewpoints, and then prying open brain networks by reflecting on how what was learned has changed your view of the world."

iceccn> I would choose the other supervisor. Always go with the person with more vivid stories to tell. You can always explain it in the optional essay by saying.. "The one who provides the recommendation letter for me is my cross supervisor in the company's structure, but has had much more interaction with me than my direct supervisor. My previous direct supervisor has left the firm; my new direct supervisor has just arrived and doesn't know me well yet. " (These are your words

)

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2010-1-3 04:07

Zoolantz> Yes, that's my point. The true 'differentiation' is not to show that you are special, but to show self-knowledge. In my case, I know I'm young, and I know there are parts of me that are immature. But you can't rush growing up, and while I need to be aware of my weaknesses, I also can try to view them as strengths. However, this is true of someone of any age. An older person views those younger as immature. A younger person view older people as stubborn, because once one gets older one has more experience, but that experience sets one in his/her ways so he/she finds it harder to learn new things. So regardless of our age, it is an eternal process in understanding our own strengths and weaknesses, and in learning from others at different stages of their lives, both to remind us what we once were but have now given up (and perhaps now being the time to reconsider whether you should revisit that), but also to learn from different individuals who think differently. I may be younger than you, but that's not the only thing that defines my thoughts. I am from a certain country, a certain background, a certain family.. So yes, we look at people younger than us and that reminds us of ourselves at an earlier age, but even then we have much to learn from how they are different from us not just in age alone.

This is the whole point of diversity, and why it is valued in schools. Most people think, "I am diverse because I am unique, because I can contribute this or that". That's not true. Everyone is unique. In fact, diversity becomes useful when the opposite happens. When people think, "I have strengths, but I also have weaknesses. Looking at others can remind me of myself, which is a good learning experience, but others are also different individuals, and I should try to see things from their perspective." If everyone thinks this way, then diversity will have value. If everyone thinks, "I am diverse in this way.. come and learn from me", then there will be no need for diversity because nobody will be learning from others.
PS, this is why schools seldom ask you, 'how will you add to diversity', with a view to seeing you say, "I am special in the following ways..". They don't do this because: 1) that is what the resume is for. 2) how you are special is something THEY decide, not you. Many students I've met try to differentiate themselves from other Chinese applicants, not realising that in the mind of the adcom.. "I am not typical Chinese" may not be diverse, because perhaps they are exactly looking for a classic Chinese applicant, because that will look most 'diverse' within the entire class? Anyway, even this is speculation. I'm jus tsaying you can't second-guess what they are looking for. 3) Indeed, perhaps the biggest problem is that they're not even 'looking' for any one profile in the first place.

So, instead they focus on finding out what kind of an introspective person you are, so they'll know if you can contribute to an environment where diversity will have educational value.
Here is an article from the NYTimes you may find interesting. They mention the accepting of diversity of viewpoints being very important for an older adult, in order to learn.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/education/edlife/03adult-t.html
Quote: "Teaching new facts should not be the focus of adult education, she says. Instead, continued brain development and a richer form of learning may require that you “bump up against people and ideas” that are different. In a history class, that might mean reading multiple viewpoints, and then prying open brain networks by reflecting on how what was learned has changed your view of the world."

iceccn> I would choose the other supervisor. Always go with the person with more vivid stories to tell. You can always explain it in the optional essay by saying.. "The one who provides the recommendation letter for me is my cross supervisor in the company's structure, but has had much more interaction with me than my direct supervisor. My previous direct supervisor has left the firm; my new direct supervisor has just arrived and doesn't know me well yet. " (These are your words

)

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/3 3:53:50)

On self-knowledge. To achieve self-knowledge, it is crucial to have a pure heart. Once upon a time, we were all pure in certain stage of our lives. But we experienced and were polished by the external influences and forces. No wonder in the forecourt of Temple of Apollo at Delphi, the phrase "Know Thyself" is inscribed there. To some extent, it is the highest realization of any individual. As you pointed out correctly, "it is an eternal process in understanding our own strengths and weaknesses"

Besides knowing how to differentiate our true selves philosophically, I think a more practical way is to apply our brainstorming results to paper. And do so in a frank way.

作者: iceccn 时间: 2010-1-4 23:05
Hi Jason,
I am going to submit Wharton today, but just find there seems to be no format requirement for the word doc.? Should I use double space and font size 10?

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-5 00:56
iceccn> Do whatever you think appropriate. Formatting is not going to be a problem on any application.

作者: iceccn 时间: 2010-1-5 19:46
Thank you Jason, I submitted already

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-6 00:27
标题: Are business school students 'students' or 'customers'?
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/are-they-students-or-customers/

作者: nanirina 时间: 2010-1-10 14:34
*thumbs up*

I like what you wrote here, reminds me of the theme from the story of Oedipus the King and Oedipus @ Colonus by Sophocles.

)

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/3 3:53:50)

-- by 会员 topmba2009 (2010/1/3 4:07:42)

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-10 20:04
标题: 正反合 thinking at business schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/business/10mba.html?hp

This is why Rotman was my second-choice school after Wharton.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-11 09:52
标题: Respond to toyvicky's take on Admissions Consulting
Toyvicky wrote this on his thread, original here: http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-432142-1-1.html

"已经给前5个留言。如果没收到 PING 我。希望有些用，再多说几句，每个人对ADMISSION CONSULTING 的看法不同，学校都是不支持的，但是就像我们高考，牛人一样可以考状元，上不上补习班都一样，如果有新东方可以帮你GMAT，ADMISSION CONSULTING 也是如此。

这些绝不是给自己拉客户，做广告，我们收的都是美元价，换算成人民币不是大家愿意负担的，所以我们的中国客户都是读EXECUTIVE MBA 的。

这里有很多有用的信息，我的总体感受是，就象GMAT一样，道理大家都懂，就是不能人人上700. 你要如何把大家都知道的黄金定律做成一个突出自己特色，和符合学校特色的PACKAGE, 那是你自己的造化。这才是ADMISSION CONSULTING 的VALUE 所在。"

I have a different take on this. Perhaps when toyvicky had worked with EMBAs, they are a lot more confident of themselves because of maturity and age. Even then, my EMBA friends have found the process to be a great one for self-reflection and self-discovery.

I think it far more important to learn about who you are. This is easier said than done, which is why virtually all schools ask for it. The "Why abc" school is important, but that too is part of the process of understanding what YOU want from a school, as opposed to sticking to vague notions of "alumni" and "brand".

It is all a process of self-discovery. I believe that the value in admission consulting, or as I tend to do, answering questions here, is that sometimes it takes an external party to cut through your own confusion, to help you see something that you missed. Which is why I always like to begin with this first question: why shouldn't you do an MBA? In my mind, a successful advisor will end up having maybe 30-40% of the people who go to him, ultimately deciding NOT to do an MBA. After having cut through their own confusion, I believe that more people than actually dare to admit to themselves, may find that an MBA is not suitable for them after all. Unfortunately, if everyone believes that there is a 黄金定律, and the aim is to 做成一个突出自己特色, in order to make a 符合学校特色的PACKAGE, then you have not very honestly and critically questioned your own assumptions. Such confusion is very very easy to pick out, and I've seen it in many a set of essays- many times by people who then get dinged, and have no idea why they've been dinged, since they've spent so much time on their essays. These people have also frequently consulted many application consultants, many alumni- basically, tried to get the answer of 'who am I?' from other people. Not surprisingly, it often doesn't work.

It is extremely difficult for me sometimes to tell them that they really need to question their assumption that business school is right for them, since they've been so focused on 'execution' that they've forgotten, "to what end?".

Like I said, this probably applies a lot more to the MBA crowd than the EMBA crowd that toyvicky refers to. The EMBA prospective students I've met tend to be a lot more clear about what they want and need.

Jason

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2010-1-23 05:15

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/business/10mba.html?hp

This is why Rotman was my second-choice school after Wharton.

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/10 20:04:02)

Have you read Roger Martin's new book about integrative thinking for future MBA education?

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-23 14:20
Yes. Actually most of it was quite obvious to me

But then... they didn't need to convince me of the merits of this to begin with, so I'm probably not a good gauge of whether this is a good book.

作者: lisese 时间: 2010-1-23 21:08
标题: 发现这个，先UP再仔细看

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2010-1-24 01:14

Yes. Actually most of it was quite obvious to me

But then... they didn't need to convince me of the merits of this to begin with, so I'm probably not a good gauge of whether this is a good book.

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/23 14:20:41)

I found it interesting to compare Rotman's "integrated thinking" with Duke Fuqua's "interscholastic approach" (seen in recent McKinsey interview with Blair Sheppard). To me, they are more of the same strategy with different names - Rotman's is a micro-approach while Duke's a more macro-approach. Not sure how each program executes their philosophies in detail. But I agree with Barry Mitnick in the debate on Case Method that "Assurance-of-Doing" is much needed on top of "Assurance-of-Learning". Much thinking without proper backup from hands-on practice is a waste.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-24 05:13
Some find practice easier, some find thinking easier. But yes, both are essential.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-24 05:21
I had the following debate with windboy in another thread, here. http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-432500-3-1.html
-------
him: "it is not wise to draw conclusions purely on the basis of your personal experiences/stories, etc. you will need to look at the mba population as a whole and do some statistical analysis to draw any meanful conclusion, rather than any other methods else. of course, the data are really hard to come by.

anyway, i think it makes sense that mba program, as a whole, will NOT be a loser's game, if you look at the supply and demand of mbas-to-be, if we assume that people are avearage rational investors. therefore, it is really simple to know the answer, even without using any sophisticated statisitcal analysis..."
-------
me: "Sure. Sometimes you need to be able to draw the right conclusions after making assumptions- there, statistical analyses helps. But you always need to understand what the right assumptions are. What makes you think that 'people', and particularly 'the mba population', are average rational investors?

Besides, I will never forget what Steven Levitt told us in class one fine day in Chicago. What matters TO YOU is not the 'average' investor, but the 'marginal' investor. Data collection not withstanding, looking at others can sometimes be the completely wrong gauge of what you should be thinking about. I think even the most traditional economist will disagree that the following chain of logic (which is what you are suggesting) is right: 'people are average rational investors' -> 'i am a person' -> 'therefore i MUST be an average rational investor, because I must be the average'.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's wrong to look at others. In many cases, people should do more looking at others. Unfortunately when it comes to business school, however, my experience is that most people do too much looking at others, and do not do enough looking at themselves. Maybe you are the opposite- which still supports my conclusion that everyone should and must decide for themselves."
---------
him: "i am now really surprised that you were trained in chicago, as your comments sound more like typical wharton grads i have come across, quite a few..than from chicago, where Lucas is the god father for rationalism/expectation...

steve is very smart/renowned micro-economist and i won't argue sth abt some basic stuff from econ101. anyone with decent training in statistics/econometrics will understand my previous comments, which of course involves nothing technicality, which i didn't bother to include. my comments before were more of a methodolgy suggestion, rather going into details of explaining how to set up your regression equations and calibration methods with MCMC or gmm (check it out on Hansen's page if gmm doesn't ring a bell or google gibbs sampling algorithm if you don't understand MCMC.)

i made my comments before as some of the comments on this thread were becoming too philosophical, with too good rethorics to have much practical relevance.. anyway, won't waste too much time as still lots of work to do today even it is saturday, sign...

the bottom line of my suggestion: mba from a top school is sth will highly likely to change your life/career. so don't give it up if you have an offer. it is like a simple trading rule: you will have higher probability of being up while the downside is limited. The risk/return profile of an mba is very good."

---------

I would like to comment (or more accurately, vent). We obviously have different opinions. Fine. No problem. What I find difficult to accept is being challenged that "I was trained in Chicago", especially when someone doesn't know me, and sends off replies rapidly because they "don't want to waste too much time because they have lots of work to do, even on a Saturday sigh". Guess what- the world doesn't revolve around you.

I too have work to do. I too treasure my time. I volunteer it- I give it- because I respect the opinions and dreams of others here, and try to help you along the way. I will never make a comment like "I am only saying this quickly" because I understand that every comment I make will be scrutinised. And so I am careful with my words. After all, these are all your dreams we're talking about. I want to respect you, and the best way to do that is to consider carefully your comments, and respond appropriately.

That aside, I also do not appreciate the personal attacks on whether I deserve to be at Wharton, Chicago, or anywhere else. If you read this, Windboy: you may be smarter than me, particularly when it comes to Statistics. But I do not think that that gives you the right to pretend to know me, judge me, and thereafter criticise me, based on a couple of comments that I've made.

It's hurtful when things like that happen. But maybe I'm just too sensitive. Perhaps a better person than I would not have been affected.

Jason

作者: topmba2009 时间: 2010-1-24 06:12
Hey bro, I can sort of feel the hard feelings. You know, lots of CDers, including me, do appreciate your longtime contribution to encourage us, inspire us, and correct us.

One person's opinion about whether you represent UChicago or not doesn't achieve the intended objective because 1) we know what your record is, and most importantly 2) you know even better. And of course, everyone knows that, attacking a personal quality in any debate is a logical fallacy. You can safely ignore that, although the feelings associated with the negative arguments may sow a seed of unfriendliness.

You can't be more sensitive than me because Pisces are probably the most sensitive ones in all 12 zodiac, and you are not one of them. (Yes, I know....I believe in this crap and worse, I am one little Pisces, lol).

So cheer up, bro! Smoothly handling negative attacks or comments is a must-have trait for anyone wants to do something larger than himself. Think about Obama..... You shall overcome this!

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-24 18:27
Thanks Dan. It is good to be appreciated, particularly when it comes from the CDers that spend their own also valuable time to carefully read and reflect.

What I can't stand most is when someone makes snap 5 minute judgments, because they think their own time is too valuable to spend more time reflecting (which is fine- if your time is so valuable, go do something else, and just don't post), yet they also have such a self-centered view of themselves that they think that everyone should spend careful time reflecting and reading their own 5 minute posts. And when we find something to disagree about.. "oh, I only spent 5 minutes on this, sigh I am so busy, you can't blame me, if I spent more time I will be entirely correct because obviously I am smarter than you and I cannot ever get this wrong."

Anyway, this is just venting. I'm only human, I get pissed too

Again, really glad to know you appreciate my efforts. It's comments like these that make me feel that giving my time on CD is worth the effort.

Handling negative attacks is a must-have trait, agreed: but if I had ignored this, then this wouldn't have been very different from windboy's "oh I'm going to ignore you because you're not worth my time". Windboy: I think that you are worth my time. You are obviously very smart, and very good at statistics and economics... But there are other areas in which I believe you have gone too far. Perhaps, just as I still have much to learn about stats and economics, perhaps you too have some things that you could still learn about.

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-25 19:53
A reminder to would-be applicants... Come and read my other thread on essay feedback!

http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-432149-1-2.html

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-26 15:04
标题: How to write "why" a school
One thing I find when many students write "why abc school", is that they simply don't give good reasons. They simply give a reason that could be any school. For instance, "many great alumni"- which school doesn't have this? Or, for instance, "international programmes". Again, every school has this.

Instead, one good approach is to pretend you are preparing a powerpoint slide for your boss: "why ABC school", and you need to create a graph showing the differences between the schools. Does it make sense to create a graph showing # of alumni? No. Does it make sense to create a graph showing "internationality of programme?" Again no. So what DOES make sense, that can be quantified between different schools?

Things like: "# of students". Some schools (eg. Wharton, HBS) are big. Some (eg. Stanford) are small. Things like: "location". These are things that it is clear that one school cannot be the same as all other schools in.

Put another way, you should not think about what the school has. Instead, think about the factors that the school is GIVING UP. So if Wharton has 800 students, we can't have 300 students. You just can't have both. A bigger school can have more resources and a more vibrant life, but GIVES UP a close-knit environment and a more family-like feeling. Similarly, a school can't be both in New York (eg. Columbia) and Boston (eg. MIT) at once. By being in New York, Columbia students might be GIVING UP the tranquility of Boston. Another example: by being completely case-driven, HBS is GIVING UP the benefits of a straightforward lecture, which might indeed better suit certain subjects/ certain topics/ certain students.

In contrast, a school can have both international and non-international programmes. Adding one doesn't subtract from another. So any school can add as much as they want. A school can also add as many clubs as it want (hence, an applicant writing "I will join xyz club" is not a good reason, since any other school could easily just set up that club). Similarly, classes. A school can always hire a new professor to teach a specific class. So "I like abc class" is not a good reason.

A student's task is to think about where a school has to make trade-offs and compromises, and understand whether the particular trade-offs the school has made.. are in their favour. If no trade-offs have to be made, then the school can always add these things in. Schools do not differentiate themselves by adding things that any other school could easily add.

So think not about what YOU like about the school. But think about what the school likes about itself. Think about where it has had to make 'sacrifices' because it can't be two things at once. Those are the reasons that make good "why"s.

PS: this is not different from what I was talking about earlier. Just as you differentiate yourself through your weaknesses, so too do schools.

作者: wordance 时间: 2010-1-26 15:27

One thing I find when many students write "why abc school", is that they simply don't give good reasons. They simply give a reason that could be any school. For instance, "many great alumni"- which school doesn't have this? Or, for instance, "international programmes". Again, every school has this.

Instead, one good approach is to pretend you are preparing a powerpoint slide for your boss: "why ABC school", and you need to create a graph showing the differences between the schools. Does it make sense to create a graph showing # of alumni? No. Does it make sense to create a graph showing "internationality of programme?" Again no. So what DOES make sense, that can be quantified between different schools?

Things like: "# of students". Some schools (eg. Wharton, HBS) are big. Some (eg. Stanford) are small. Things like: "location". These are things that it is clear that one school cannot be the same as all other schools in.

Put another way, you should not think about what the school has. Instead, think about the factors that the school is GIVING UP. So if Wharton has 800 students, we can't have 300 students. You just can't have both. A bigger school can have more resources and a more vibrant life, but GIVES UP a close-knit environment and a more family-like feeling. Similarly, a school can't be both in New York (eg. Columbia) and Boston (eg. MIT) at once. By being in New York, Columbia students might be GIVING UP the tranquility of Boston. Another example: by being completely case-driven, HBS is GIVING UP the benefits of a straightforward lecture, which might indeed better suit certain subjects/ certain topics/ certain students.

In contrast, a school can have both international and non-international programmes. Adding one doesn't subtract from another. So any school can add as much as they want. A school can also add as many clubs as it want (hence, an applicant writing "I will join xyz club" is not a good reason, since any other school could easily just set up that club). Similarly, classes. A school can always hire a new professor to teach a specific class. So "I like abc class" is not a good reason.

A student's task is to think about where a school has to make trade-offs and compromises, and understand whether the particular trade-offs the school has made.. are in their favour. If no trade-offs have to be made, then the school can always add these things in. Schools do not differentiate themselves by adding things that any other school could easily add.
So think not about what YOU like about the school. But think about what the school likes about itself. Think about where it has had to make 'sacrifices' because it can't be two things at once. Those are the reasons that make good "why"s.

PS: this is not different from what I was talking about earlier. Just as you differentiate yourself through your weaknesses, so too do schools.

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/26 15:04:52)

thanks jason, this is indeed enlightening, especially when i writing my 2nd love letter to chicago booth this week

really learnt a lot from you. You reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes: "I always knew what the right path was, without exception I knew. But I never took it. You know why? Because it's SO--DAMN--HARD." I have always admired people who go to great lengths to take the right path--because myself can't take it all the time--and you are certainly one of them. Looking at the help you extended to the aspirants and the advice you gave on this forum, I can't help wondering what CD will become without people like you. It is you guys and the spirit you embody that makes CD such a wonderful and motivating place. I personally thank you for that..

作者: Cova 时间: 2010-1-26 22:30

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/1/26 15:04:52)

ahhhh I wish I had read it earlier....(which is impossible given Jason just posted today....)

Anyway, future applicants will benefit from Jason's posts a lot more than we do this year, as Jason grow older and become wiser and more prolific.....

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-1-27 04:12
Thanks guys

BTW, when I applied to Wharton, I did not know- and so did not speak to- a single Wharton-connected student or alumni. Instead I took everything I needed from the website, using the logic that I've mentioned above.

PS, the fact that there is logic involved in this should give you a hint as to why schools ask this. They don't ask it for nothing. They ask it because they want to see how you think, how you make decisions. What better way than to ask you to explain this decision, that you've probably spent a lot of time thinking about?

PPS, I hope I'm beginning to show that there is MUCH MUCH more to the essays. These are infinitely more important for the school to judge who you are, than factors like 'gmat, work experience', and so on. Many factors can affect one's gmat and work- not least of all, luck. But by forcing you to show who you are in the way you choose to write the essays, schools learn a lot more about you than most applicants realise.

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-13 11:27
Someone asked why some students may get into some schools but not others. "每年都有进了A家不进B家的牛人，是不是每个学校偏好的criteria还不一样呢？"

I said this:

"Of course. That's why fit is important. But also some people simply 'screw up' their essays or interviews for different schools. Which, BTW, should tell you that it makes no sense to say that 'xyz school is the best'. Students there may simply have been lucky.

Anyway, the admission criteria for Wharton is clear. How to get there is perhaps less so.

http://www.accepted.com/chat/Transcripts/2009/mba08262009_wharton.aspx

"a good fit for Wharton would be as follows: We look for people who are intellectually curious, who ask "why" a lot, who want to make a positive change, who like to work with other people, who like tackling complex difficult problems, who see the current economic "crisis" as an opportunity, who wants to be "in the game" as opposed to "watching the game," who will make Wharton and their classmates better, and who ultimately will make the world better."

source: JJ culter.

Since one of the most difficult problems anyone can deal with is to be honest to yourself (eg. Interviewer: "why do you want banking?" You: "I want banking because..." Interviewer: watch your body language to see if you're bullshitting), that's why they ask these questions.

There are literally a million ways to try to see if someone has this "Wharton mindset". Look at your leadership style. Look at the way you carry yourself in the interview. Look at the way you answer questions, and whether I think you're being evasive or honest. See if you're merely confident, or instead cocky and arrogant. And so on.

Don't forget that a lot of communication is non-verbal. You may have a 'perfect answer', but it is my experience that a lot of people with 'perfect answers' (including 'perfect essays' or 'perfect interview qns') get dinged, because those answers were 'perfectly crafted' for them by alumni, friends, consultants. When they say it, they simply lack the honesty and passion to make those answers genuine.

Why do I bring this in? Well, for a question like this, it is just as important to think about "how you're saying something", and what that says about you. And well, unless you're really a fantastic speaker who can convince the adcom (who have interviewed thousands) that your 'perfect answer' is genuine.... Otherwise, go for a true answer. What is your true weakness? Perhaps you're too lazy sometimes? Perhaps you like to 'watch the game' rather than 'be in the game' (despite what Cutler says)?

The point is, the fact that you can recognise this... gives you a chance to start improving on it. And that's what they want to see."

Original thread here: http://forum.chasedream.com/North_American_MBA/thread-438358-1-1.html

作者: dogshead 时间: 2010-2-14 11:00
Thanks Jason for your so much information. I would like to know whether it is realistic for China mainland applicant to get admitted in Round 3 of Wharton. due to certain reason，I dont want to apply next year. so if applying R3 is not feasible, I would give up having a try.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-14 15:45
We do not have a pool. Your chances as a 'mainland Chinese student' applying to Wharton is the same as any other student applying to Wharton, regardless of which round.

That being said, R3 is the toughest round- for everyone. While we will always have slots in R3 for qualified applicants, we will have far fewer slots in R3. There is absolutely no reason why one of those slots couldn't go to you, though. The only certain thing is this: if you don't try, you definitely don't get in.

If you can't apply next year, then I would apply for R3 this year.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-23 00:00
Up

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-23 04:31
I recently asked the Wharton adcom for copies of my own essays (I'd lost them). Here's my failure essay.

Question: Describe a failure that you have experienced. What role did you play, and what did you learn about yourself? (500 words)

Absolute US was an annual event in Singapore that helped prospective students meet those of us who were already schooling in USA. It is now defunct, but I’d once tried- and failed- to resurrect it.

When I took this up, Absolute US had been on the brink of death, and I’d begun the project by formulating a three-faceted revival plan. First, it’d previously been held at Singapore’s largest club, and I decided on a smaller and cozier venue instead. Second, some games would be organised to spice things up. Finally, a team of motivated shareholders- rather than low-energy volunteers- would be assembled by pitching Absolute US as a money-making venture. Besides arming myself with a good plan, I also worked extremely hard, playing whatever role was necessary- be it the leader who’d formulated the entire plan; the more hands-off project consultant; or the event’s game designer- to make my re-conceptualization a reality.

I had a good plan, a dedicated team, and had been doing whatever it took to succeed. But in spite of this, Absolute US 2006 boasted historical attendance lows and didn’t make a profit. What’d gone wrong?

Having reflected upon the affair, I now realize that the project had been doomed from the start, because of three errors in execution.

First, we’d ignored local contexts. Making plans from abroad left the project without proper intelligence on the ground. I’d designed the new, apparently perfect, plan and organized the team when I was in Chicago in April 2006. When my team returned to Singapore in June after school had ended, I went to Thailand for a month of social work. As students who’d spent the year abroad, we eventually picked a venue that turned out to be a has-been so past its popularity peak that it folded a month after our event. A better appreciation of the need for ground-level research would have served us well.

Second, as leader I’d failed to strike a balance between involvement with the project vision and its details. I’d worked hard, involving myself in all the project nitty-gritty’s. However, my trying to go it alone working out every detail, rather than trusting others to execute, not only caused a breakdown in communication of the project vision to my team, but also left them without a leader for a short period when I was in Thailand. Though I’d immediately stepped down and become a project consultant instead after realizing the problem, it’d been too late. The leaderless period had already demoralized my team.

Third, I’d lacked a backup plan. I’d taken for granted that no hiccups would occur, and when one did, I was caught unprepared. In particular, I’d planned to communicate from Thailand via email, but this eventually proved unfeasible because I’d unexpectedly lacked internet access.

What I’d learnt, in short, was that having a neat idea is no guarantee of successful execution. This had been a painful but educational experience, and I look forward to doing things differently- and succeeding- in future endeavors.

作者: maxdaddy 时间: 2010-2-23 04:53

I recently asked the Wharton adcom for copies of my own essays (I'd lost them). Here's my failure essay.

Question: Describe a failure that you have experienced. What role did you play, and what did you learn about yourself? (500 words)

Absolute US was an annual event in Singapore that helped prospective students meet those of us who were already schooling in USA. It is now defunct, but I’d once tried- and failed- to resurrect it.

When I took this up, Absolute US had been on the brink of death, and I’d begun the project by formulating a three-faceted revival plan. First, it’d previously been held at Singapore’s largest club, and I decided on a smaller and cozier venue instead. Second, some games would be organised to spice things up. Finally, a team of motivated shareholders- rather than low-energy volunteers- would be assembled by pitching Absolute US as a money-making venture. Besides arming myself with a good plan, I also worked extremely hard, playing whatever role was necessary- be it the leader who’d formulated the entire plan; the more hands-off project consultant; or the event’s game designer- to make my re-conceptualization a reality.

I had a good plan, a dedicated team, and had been doing whatever it took to succeed. But in spite of this, Absolute US 2006 boasted historical attendance lows and didn’t make a profit. What’d gone wrong?

Having reflected upon the affair, I now realize that the project had been doomed from the start, because of three errors in execution.

First, we’d ignored local contexts. Making plans from abroad left the project without proper intelligence on the ground. I’d designed the new, apparently perfect, plan and organized the team when I was in Chicago in April 2006. When my team returned to Singapore in June after school had ended, I went to Thailand for a month of social work. As students who’d spent the year abroad, we eventually picked a venue that turned out to be a has-been so past its popularity peak that it folded a month after our event. A better appreciation of the need for ground-level research would have served us well.

Second, as leader I’d failed to strike a balance between involvement with the project vision and its details. I’d worked hard, involving myself in all the project nitty-gritty’s. However, my trying to go it alone working out every detail, rather than trusting others to execute, not only caused a breakdown in communication of the project vision to my team, but also left them without a leader for a short period when I was in Thailand. Though I’d immediately stepped down and become a project consultant instead after realizing the problem, it’d been too late. The leaderless period had already demoralized my team.

Third, I’d lacked a backup plan. I’d taken for granted that no hiccups would occur, and when one did, I was caught unprepared. In particular, I’d planned to communicate from Thailand via email, but this eventually proved unfeasible because I’d unexpectedly lacked internet access.

What I’d learnt, in short, was that having a neat idea is no guarantee of successful execution. This had been a painful but educational experience, and I look forward to doing things differently- and succeeding- in future endeavors.

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2010/2/23 4:31:00)

Thanks for sharing...as you mentioned previously, no 'silver lining'...Very well-written....

Now I think one of the biggest reasons why Wharton dinged me was my writing skills.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-23 04:57
Analysing my own essay.

Question: "Describe a failure that you have experienced. What role did you play, and what did you learn about yourself?"

"Describe a failure that you experienced."
1) I described the failure very clearly. In the first paragraph I said what was the event in a short and succinct manner. In the third paragraph I also made clear why this was a failure: "historical attendance lows and didn't turn a profit". No ambiguity whatsoever, and no excuses posed. The event was a disaster.

"What role did you play"
2) In the second paragraph I reference "playing whatever role was necessary- be it the leader who’d formulated the entire plan; the more hands-off project consultant; or the event’s game designer- to make my re-conceptualization a reality." It is also clear that this was my project, so I owned it.

"What did you learn about yourself?"
3) I answered this in a less direct way. I learnt that I tended to focus on the "neat idea", but in future had to focus more on "successful execution" as well. I didn't say this outright, but it was clear throughout my essay I was honestly trying to "learn" something- I had come away from the experience having identified three errors, rather than trying to find excuses.

Other things to notice:
1) I did not find excuses to "frame my failure as a success". Many applicants spend half the essay talking about the failure, and then half the essay trying to apply the lessons to a later situation to show they had 'succeeded'. Instead, I assure the adcom that I will succeed in future, because by my very approach- no excuses- I show that I have internalised the lessons learnt. Rather, someone who is concerned with excuses, may lead to the adcom questioning if an applicant has truly understood that he had screwed up.

2) My essay is very critical of myself. This shows confidence, honesty, and humility. I use phrases like "I'd failed".. "I'd lacked"... "I'd taken for granted"... These are very critical, and aren't, "Because of this, I chose to... Unfortunately it failed". Again, no excuses.

3) The essay is very analytical. This tells them that I will approach business questions in a logical, structured manner.

4) The trick to failure essays is to show how what you had done makes sense, but you still screwed up and so still have something to learn. My second paragraph is aimed at showing that, "hey, I wasn't dumb. I had some good ideas and did some good things too." This has two effects: 1) it shows you're not totally hopeless

2) it shows that, you are able to learn from something EVEN WHEN you had a good plan to begin with. It's often easy to say, "I screwed up, something must change". But it's harder to say, "I may have done well, but how can I do better?"

5) I first -showed- them what I learnt in paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 (First... Second... Third), showing an attention to detail. Then I showed the ability to extrapolate to bigger learnings: ("What I’d learnt, in short, was that having a neat idea is no guarantee of successful execution."). A successful communicator needs to be able to look at detail in order to support your point, but also be able to sum things up in one sentence.

Interesting things:

1) I write in short paragraphs. This might irritate some people (...one sentence cannot be a paragraph!). But that's my style.

2) Although I have no work experience, notice how this extra-curricular activity could easily be 'running an event at work'. The scale of the event is not important. This does not involve the whole school: I am not a leader of the entire UChicago. But leadership can be shown in almost everything you do- regardless of the scale (number of people attending..) or context (work vs school).

3) I include 'small details' like "I went to Thailand for a month of social work". This is another way to talk about other activities you did, that may not justify a whole essay, or that you may not want to over-emphasising, in case the adcom suspects that I'm just doing social work so that it looks good on an essay/resume.

4) I spent about 50 hours on this essay. I went through about 5 different versions. Each of them looked very different to the last.

Hope this helps!
Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-2-23 05:03

Thanks for sharing...as you mentioned previously, no 'silver lining'...Very well-written....

Now I think one of the biggest reasons why Wharton dinged me was my writing skills.

-- by 会员 maxdaddy (2010/2/23 4:53:32)

See "other things to notice", point 1 and 2. Choosing to have a "silver lining" is not a problem of writing. It's that you end up NOT showing those point that I had shown (self-confidence, humility, etc.) Good writing is often a matter of what you choose to write and not write (eg. a silver lining); what you choose to put in and not put in (eg. a structure for analysing decisions). It is less about "what word did you use? How is your grammar?" and so on.

In short, there are two types of "writing skills": "thinking skills" (what did you choose to put in?) and "execution skills" (what words did you use?). The former is very relevant to a business leader; the latter is more relevant to a writer/author. That's why business schools emphasise the essays so much: they're not looking for good writers (the second type of "writing skills")... they're looking for good thinkers. You can outsource writing, but you can't outsource thinking. (this, btw, is why many 'application consultants' fail. They are good at helping with writing, but not thinking.)

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 10:33
ask一个问题：如果进了某校面试，是不是说明GPA/G/T/Essay没有问题呢？
如果是，那面试如何能够筛掉８０％的合格人选？
如果不是，那学校为什么不先把基本没希望的筛出去，还要先面一下呢？

作者: pursueMBA2010 时间: 2010-3-24 11:15
我觉得进面试和没问题是两回事
面试个人觉得80%是无用的，verify一下而已

所以好多情况其实应该是面试之前就知道你是不是可能可以录取

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 11:17
那就比较奇怪第二个问题了：如果不是，那学校为什么不先把基本没希望的筛出去，还要先面一下呢？

作者: pursueMBA2010 时间: 2010-3-24 11:30
个人观点：
1.学校不排除小概率事件，比如文章代写，或者某人文章稍弱但只是文字表达不够好但其实人很牛
2.不排除作秀

我们招员工不也是么？看了两份入围面试的简历，其实你心理应该有谱谁比较可能谁比较不可能吧？面试只是验证下你的感觉是对的而已

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 12:07
但是我就不会选出这么大比例去面试，如果我的acceptance是２０％，我只会挑３０％的面试，中间那１０％是给不确定的．而不会面试５０％的人．．．

作者: pursueMBA2010 时间: 2010-3-24 12:22
如果再算上60％多的yield rate的因素呢？

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 12:25
俺每次都是炮灰的那档．．．

作者: goodluckdan 时间: 2010-3-24 12:25
admit rate是指 extend offer/total number of applicants...和yield rate没关系吧？

作者: pursueMBA2010 时间: 2010-3-24 12:44
月亮，同炮灰＋1

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 13:54
额就想问：没有面试也就罢了，但是面了ｎ多，啥啥没有，说明什么呢？

作者: Cova 时间: 2010-3-24 17:51
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704211704575139891390595962.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

与各位战友共勉之……

还有4个小时……

作者: danielleruc 时间: 2010-3-24 18:02
Thanks for sharing. Very nice and insightful post.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704211704575139891390595962.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

与各位战友共勉之……

还有4个小时……

-- by 会员 Cova (2010/3/24 17:51:18)

作者: cocu 时间: 2010-3-24 18:10

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704211704575139891390595962.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

与各位战友共勉之……

还有4个小时……

-- by 会员 Cova (2010/3/24 17:51:18)

什么4小时阿。。。

作者: 潮人AAA 时间: 2010-3-24 18:16

so sad, For those who can't access the passage in China, and also for those who experienced such misfortune, Cheer Up!

天将降大任於斯人也, 。。。, 各位努力了!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704211704575139891390595962.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

Before They Were Titans, Moguls and Newsmakers, These People Were...Rejected At College Admission Time, Lessons in Thin Envelopes

Few events arouse more teenage angst than the springtime arrival of college rejection letters. With next fall's college freshman class expected to approach a record 2.9 million students, hundreds of thousands of applicants will soon be receiving the dreaded letters.

Teenagers who face rejection will be joining good company, including Nobel laureates, billionaire philanthropists, university presidents, constitutional scholars, best-selling authors and other leaders of business, media and the arts who once received college or graduate-school rejection letters of their own.
Both Warren Buffett and "Today" show host Meredith Vieira say that while being rejected by the school of their dreams was devastating, it launched them on a path to meeting life-changing mentors. Harold Varmus, winner of the Nobel Prize in medicine, says getting rejected twice by Harvard Medical School, where a dean advised him to enlist in the military, was soon forgotten as he plunged into his studies at Columbia University's med school. For other college rejects, from Sun Microsystems co-founder Scott McNealy and entrepreneur Ted Turner to broadcast journalist Tom Brokaw, the turndowns were minor footnotes, just ones they still remember and will talk about.

Rejections aren't uncommon. Harvard accepts only a little more than 7% of the 29,000 undergraduate applications it receives each year, and Stanford's acceptance rate is about the same.

"The truth is, everything that has happened in my life...that I thought was a crushing event at the time, has turned out for the better," Mr. Buffett says. With the exception of health problems, he says, setbacks teach "lessons that carry you along. You learn that a temporary defeat is not a permanent one. In the end, it can be an opportunity."
Mr. Buffett regards his rejection at age 19 by Harvard Business School as a pivotal episode in his life. Looking back, he says Harvard wouldn't have been a good fit. But at the time, he "had this feeling of dread" after being rejected in an admissions interview in Chicago, and a fear of disappointing his father.

As it turned out, his father responded with "only this unconditional love...an unconditional belief in me," Mr. Buffett says. Exploring other options, he realized that two investing experts he admired, Benjamin Graham and David Dodd, were teaching at Columbia's graduate business school. He dashed off a late application, where by a stroke of luck it was fielded and accepted by Mr. Dodd. From these mentors, Mr. Buffett says he learned core principles that guided his investing. The Harvard rejection also benefited his alma mater; the family gave more than $12 million to Columbia in 2008 through the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation, based on tax filings.

The lesson of negatives becoming positives has proved true repeatedly, Mr. Buffett says. He was terrified of public speaking—so much so that when he was young he sometimes threw up before giving an address. So he enrolled in a Dale Carnegie public speaking course and says the skills he learned there enabled him to woo his future wife, Susan Thompson, a "champion debater," he says. "I even proposed to my wife during the course," he says. "If I had been only a mediocre speaker I might not have taken it."

Columbia University President Lee Bollinger was rejected as a teenager when he applied to Harvard. He says the experience cemented his belief that it was up to him alone to define his talents and potential. His family had moved to a small, isolated town in rural Oregon, where educational opportunities were sparse. As a kid, he did menial jobs around the newspaper office, like sweeping the floor.

Mr. Bollinger recalls thinking at the time, "I need to work extra hard and teach myself a lot of things that I need to know," to measure up to other students who were "going to prep schools, and having assignments that I'm not." When the rejection letter arrived, he accepted a scholarship to University of Oregon and later graduated from Columbia Law School. His advice: Don't let rejections control your life. To "allow other people's assessment of you to determine your own self-assessment is a very big mistake," says Mr. Bollinger, a First Amendment author and scholar. "The question really is, who at the end of the day is going to make the determination about what your talents are, and what your interests are? That has to be you."

Others who received Harvard rejections include "Today" show host Meredith Vieira, who was turned down in 1971 as a high-school senior. At the time, she was crushed. "In fact, I was so devastated that when I went to Tufts [University] my freshman year, every Saturday I'd hitchhike to Harvard," she says in an email. But Ms. Vieira went on to meet a mentor at Tufts who sparked her interest in journalism by offering her an internship. Had she not been rejected, she doubts that she would have entered the field, she says.

And broadcast journalist Tom Brokaw, also rejected as a teenager by Harvard, says it was one of a series of setbacks that eventually led him to settle down, stop partying and commit to finishing college and working in broadcast journalism. "The initial stumble was critical in getting me launched," he says.

Dr. Varmus, the Nobel laureate and president of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, was daunted by the first of his two turndowns by Harvard's med school. He enrolled instead in grad studies in literature at Harvard, but was uninspired by thoughts of a career in that field.

After a year, he applied again to Harvard's med school and was rejected, by a dean who chastised him in an interview for being "inconstant and immature" and advised him to enlist in the military. Officials at Columbia's medical school, however, seemed to value his "competence in two cultures," science and literature, he says.

If rejected by the school you love, Dr. Varmus advises in an email, immerse yourself in life at a college that welcomes you. "The differences between colleges that seem so important before you get there will seem a lot less important once you arrive at one that offered you a place."

Similarly, John Schlifske, president of insurance company Northwestern Mutual, was discouraged as a teenager when he received a rejection letter from Yale University. An aspiring college football player, "I wanted to go to Yale so badly," he says. He recalls coming home from school the day the letter arrived. "Mom was all excited and gave it to me," he says. His heart fell when he saw "the classic thin envelope," he says. "It was crushing."

Yet he believes he had a deeper, richer experience at Carleton College in Minnesota. He says he received a "phenomenal" education and became a starter on the football team rather than a bench-warmer as he might have been at Yale. "Being wanted is a good thing," he says.

He had a chance to pass on that wisdom to his son Dan, who was rejected in 2006 by one of his top choices, Duke University. Drawing on his own experience, the elder Mr. Schlifske told his son, "Just because somebody says no, doesn't mean there's not another school out there you're going to enjoy, and where you are going to get a good education." Dan ended up at his other top choice, Washington University in St. Louis, where he is currently a senior. Mr. Schlifske says, "he loves it."

Rejected once, and then again, by business schools at Stanford and Harvard, Scott McNealy practiced the perseverance that would characterize his career. A brash economics graduate of Harvard, he was annoyed that "they wouldn't take a chance on me right out of college," he says. He kept trying, taking a job as a plant foreman for a manufacturer and working his way up in sales. "By my third year out of school, it was clear I was going to be a successful executive. I blew the doors off my numbers," he says. Granted admission to Stanford's business school, he met Sun Microsystems co-founder Vinod Khosla and went on to head Sun for 22 years.

Paul Purcell, who heads one of the few investment-advisory companies to emerge unscathed from the recession, Robert W. Baird & Co., says he interpreted his rejection years ago by Stanford University as evidence that he had to work harder. "I took it as a signal that, 'Look, the world is really competitive, and I'll just try harder next time,'" he says. He graduated from the University of Notre Dame and got an MBA from the University of Chicago, and in 2009, as chairman, president and chief executive of Baird, won the University of Chicago Booth School of Business distinguished corporate alumnus award. Baird has remained profitable through the recession and expanded client assets to $75 billion.

Time puts rejection letters in perspective, says Ted Turner. He received dual rejections as a teenager, by Princeton and Harvard, he says in an interview. The future America's Cup winner attended Brown University, where he became captain of the sailing team. He left college after his father cut off financial support, and joined his father's billboard company, which he built into the media empire that spawned CNN. Brown has since awarded him a bachelor's degree.

Tragedies later had a greater impact on his life, he says, including the loss of his father to suicide and his teenage sister to illness. "A rejection letter doesn't even come close to losing loved ones in your family. That is the hard stuff to survive," Mr. Turner says. "I want to be sure to make this point: I did everything I did without a college degree," he says. While it is better to have one, "you can be successful without it."

Write to Sue Shellenbarger at sue.shellenbarger@wsj.com

作者: withmoon 时间: 2010-3-24 18:30

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704211704575139891390595962.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

与各位战友共勉之……

还有4个小时……

-- by 会员 Cova (2010/3/24 17:51:18)

great piece for rejectees...haha

作者: waterbearer 时间: 2010-3-24 18:41
谢谢jason~~~！！！

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-3-24 23:17
There's a deeper point here.. if these people had gotten into their original choices, they would not have been able to reject it, and perhaps there wouldn't be a Warren Buffet today. That's important to think about when you think about 'should I apply to xyz school'. Sometimes the problem is not that you can't get in, but that you DO get in, and you end up forcing yourself to go to a school where you're not a good fit. This probably doesn't make sense to most people (after all more choices is always better?? well not to me!) but it's what I believe

Anyway, "Rejected once, and then again, by business schools at Stanford and Harvard, Scott McNealy practiced the perseverance that would characterize his career. A brash economics graduate of Harvard, he was annoyed that "they wouldn't take a chance on me right out of college," he says. He kept trying, taking a job as a plant foreman for a manufacturer and working his way up in sales. "By my third year out of school, it was clear I was going to be a successful executive. I blew the doors off my numbers," he says. Granted admission to Stanford's business school, he met Sun Microsystems co-founder Vinod Khosla and went on to head Sun for 22 years."

Taking a job as a plant foreman and working his way up in sales?? This is inspiring to me- I'm going to be doing similar operational type things, but sometimes in business school if you're not doing 'banking, consulting, PE, VC', it can be very lonely. Just hope I'll have even half the success of Scott McNealy!!

作者: June28 时间: 2010-3-25 03:32
<For my failure essay:

Question: Describe a failure that you have experienced. What role did you play, and what did you learn about yourself? (500 words)

NO EXCUSES.>

Dear Jason,

Concerning no working experience, you really have no excuse for your failure in social activities alike the case your have supplied : p But I am still eager to learn from you, to achieve a successful execution, what's your insights for the people allocation, communication and conformation? To be a successful business leader, my question seems to be within the scope of thoughts. Am I right?

Although it is a little beside the point of the subject, I still appreciate your sharing right now and in the future, thanks in advance!

Cheers, June

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-3-26 03:09
June,

There are many things I have learnt over the years. For example, I've learnt that successful delegation means that you need to accept that others might choose to do things differently from you, and sometimes even if you see them headed for failure, you have to let them take responsibility for that and not step in. In a sense, to let them 'conform' to your spirit of delegation, you need to give them the freedom to decide, explore and fail- in short, to 'not conform' to your success.

Another thing I've learnt is, it is important to not be so confident, and ask for help. Often times, the more confident you seem, the more people think you don't need help.. and so they don't help! Indeed, some people might even think, 'since you're so confident, let's see you succeed by yourself'. On the other hand, if you come out and say, 'I really can't handle this.. can someone help me?' All of a sudden, the willingness to put yourself out there, to admit your own shortcomings, gives others the freedom and incentive to step in and contribute.

One last thing is that it should really be about the team and not about you. You need to know where you fit in, and act accordingly. If you're not suited to lead from the front, then don't. If you want the team to succeed, successful leadership also often means knowing when to keep quiet, so that you can build support for the guy who is in front talking. Good leadership comes not only from standing in front of others, but also being willing to give up your authority and invest it in someone else.

Cheers,
Jason

PS, even if you have work experience, the point of a learning from a failure is that you can learn from it without creating excuses. This has nothing to do with whether 'you have the right to make excuses because you have work experience.' Rather, it's whether 'you can look past your ego, be humble, and learn from your mistakes'.

作者: mindysu 时间: 2010-3-28 12:13

Jason加油！有时候我觉得，当自己不用再管how other assess your accomplishment的时候，也许就可以更好地了解自己，知道自己想要什么，想成为什么。being alone不是坏事，on the bright side, it means fewer competitors.

Cheers!

Agreed. Being alone is sometimes great.

But one caveat.. I think the problem is that most people don't know how to assess their accomplishment, so they borrow the standards of others (eg. money... promotion... etc). And when they're unhappy, they wonder why. "But I'm earning so much, doing such a dream job!' Well, simple, by others' standards you're doing great, but you need to find your own standards... Whaddya think, makes sense?

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-3-28 18:05
I don't know what happened there... mindysu's post was the Jason加油, and mine was the one in English. Somehow they got combined!!

作者: June28 时间: 2010-3-30 00:25
Jason,

Your attitude is really admired. For me, some real cases in different working scenario recall back at this time. Sometimes we try (or pretend) to be smarter than our subordinates and co-workers, but really have no time to reconsider about whether it is a wise strategy. To accomplish the targeted team success, one need to start listening more instead of ordering or commanding only. Return to the B-school essay, my experience is to catch the essence of the examples from our mentors, etc. Jason, you've done a good turn!

Have a nice day! Cheers, June

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-3-30 02:16
June, agreed. Thanks.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-5 04:16
Bump.

作者: bingbingo0 时间: 2010-4-7 02:25

-- by 会员 jelt2359 (2009/12/29 7:01:30)

Jason, your ideas are very inspiring. Your comments on essays have been very helpful to my application. Thanks a lot! I am wondering if you act as mature in the real life as what you've written in here, cuz you seem to be more mature for your age. No offense, just curious

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-4-7 03:27
No offense taken. I'd like to think I'm trying to act out what I say (with the key word being trying..). I am embarking on a non-traditional post-MBA route because I think it is important to me; I continue to work on starting a non-profit because such things speak to my passion.

But I have much to learn too. As you say, I am young. I make mistakes. There are certainly things I wish I could redo. For instance my internship this summer didn't turn out too great- I just wasn't very committed and didn't produce much results for my company. It was, basically, a failure. I think the way I approached the internship was rather immature. That aside, sometimes I can also get stuck 'thinking' too much and not 'acting' as much. Hopefully that's something that will change as I get more mature, as well..

Jason

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-5-18 22:31
Up

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-6-5 10:19
bump

作者: biantaishabi 时间: 2010-6-5 10:47
up
我也问个问题， jason什么时候毕业啊？

-----bo

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-6-5 13:04
上个月

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-6-5 16:20
Wharton just released their essays for this year:

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/admissions/apply-to-wharton.cfm

Required Question:

What are your professional objectives? (300 words)

Respond to 3 of the following 4 questions:

1. Student and alumni engagement has at times led to the creation of innovative classes. For example, through extraordinary efforts, a small group of current students partnered with faculty to create a timely course entitled, “Disaster Response: Haiti and Beyond,” empowering students to leverage the talented Wharton community to improve the lives of the Haiti earthquake victims. Similarly, Wharton students and alumni helped to create the “Innovation and the Indian Healthcare Industry” which took students to India where they studied the full range of healthcare issues in India. If you were able to create a Wharton course on any topic, what would it be? (700 words)

2. Reflect on a time when you turned down an opportunity. What was the thought process behind your decision? Would you make the same decision today? (600 words)

3. Describe a failure that you have experienced. What role did you play, and what did you learn about yourself? How did this experience help to create your definition of failure? (600 words)

4. Discuss a time when you navigated a challenging experience in either a personal or professional relationship. (600 words)

Comments:
Required essay:
I like the direction this is going. The 'why wharton why mba why now' was getting very cliched, especially because some applicants, with proper advice from colleagues and those in the know, knew what to say; others (particularly the 'diversity candidates' like the non-profit people; the minority industries; and so on) just didn't have access to such information and were getting penalised for it. For your own personal objectives, no one can coach you into a right answer. So this is a good step towards getting at what they truly want: how YOU think about your career. Make no bones about it, at Wharton, just like at every other school, there will be lots of change in your career goal once you enter the school. However, the way you think about your career is something that is unlikely to change, because that represents your ability to make good judgments. So this is still focused on how you think, and not on how 'practical' your goal is.

Essay 1:
You can see the school's desire to get candidates who care and want to contribute. The school wants to be a force for good and a force for business in the world, and they want students to be involved in this effort. If you choose this essay, be sure not to focus merely on what you find interesting (eg. purely china issues). Remember, Wharton represents a way of doing business that is global. So if you want it to be a China issue, make sure you understand how it fits in in the larger context. For instance, India's healthcare industry is a huge generics exporter in the world. In a sense, it is more global than "Indian". So it makes absolute sense that students can learn about outsourcing; exporting; multinational strategy; and so on, through the class. What will your class bring, that the world can benefit from?

Essay 2:
I think this really gets at your values. Again, it will show what kind of choices you'll make for your career, and what kind of choices you'll make later in life. We all make judgment calls and we all make decisions. With this, the school can REALLY get at what makes you tick. And btw, adcoms aren't just looking for what you claim to have turned it down for. Many times, for instance, I've seen people turn down their pre-MBA dream jobs for opportunities at brand-name firms that they never wanted, before. The reasons cited are always 'better learning experience, good challenge’- never 'money and status in society'. If the adcom reads your essay and comes away thinking that you weren't fully honest about why you turned something down, then you're in trouble. This is a tricky essay, but if you nail it, it will really show a LOT about who you are.

Essay 3:
I suspect that so many people have screwed up the failure essay with 'success stories in disguise' that they now even add a sentence: ’what is your definition of failure‘, to get you to think twice before you submit something that is really a success story dressed up to look otherwise. It adds an interesting twist, though, because a 'failure' to one person is a 'success' to another. Whether you're self-aware enough to pick a true failure, and learn from it, is a difficult thing. But just like the essay above, it can go a long way to show how self-introspective you really are. Above all be careful of your own "Ah Q spirit", and be honest that you don't always succeed.

Essay 4:
The thing that is the hardest to teach is inter-personal skills. No framework exists for such things, and so it makes perfect sense that Wharton should try to recruit students who already have such soft skills, so that we can teach you all the other hard skills you need for success. Just be sure that you're faced with a true 'challenge', and not just tell a story about a relationship you once managed. That, btw, means that you should spend some of the essay describing exactly how and why this relationship was so 'challenging', so that when you do solve it, it seems all the more impressive. BTW, this is completely different from the outsider essay. That was a question of changing your perspective (which, when I wrote, seemed very much like a 'Lauder' type of essay).. This is about how you manage relationships.

Overall:
I really like the essays this year. Really goes deep into understanding the applicant. I expect the adcom will have some interesting reading in the days to come.

作者: narcisuss 时间: 2010-6-5 22:12
看了这么多“爱分享”的Jason的文章，我能不能把essay写作的过程理解为：
1. 读懂学校的题目在问什么；
2. 以尽量自知并且展现“真我”的方式回答问题。

剩下的就看你跟这个学校来不来电了。

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-6-6 06:53

看了这么多“爱分享”的Jason的文章，我能不能把essay写作的过程理解为：
1. 读懂学校的题目在问什么；
2. 以尽量自知并且展现“真我”的方式回答问题。

剩下的就看你跟这个学校来不来电了。

-- by 会员 narcisuss (2010/6/5 22:12:55)

Sure. These are simple words, but it's often hardest to get the simplest things right

Like with #2- it's important because *everyone* can talk very candidly and openly about their strengths. How many can do the same about their weaknesses? Far fewer. But it's those who can, that are then able to learn and improve, and so potentially become better leaders.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-6-21 21:22
Up- there have been no questions for a while and I've been a bit lazy to write new things

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2010-7-21 13:37
It's been a while since I posted, since nobody has been asking me any questions (which is a good thing!)

Recently I've seen classmates starting to act as commercial 'application mentors' or other similar things, and I'm torn. On the one hand, I understand that not everyone has the network to get them access to good information about the admissions process (unlike some industries, like consulting, banking, etc). These 'application mentors' can provide this, and since everyone's time is valuable, perhaps a compensation is not out of the question. This argument appeals to the economist in me (I studied it in my Undergraduate days)- let's go for the free market!

But on the other hand, there can be the danger that this becomes too commercial, and 'mentors' and applicants alike fall into the trap of trying to guess what schools are looking for- rather than searching within for answers. Not everything can or should be commercialised/ marketised. I strongly believe that the 'end-goal' should be getting into a position that will help you- for some, that will mean 'not going to business school at all'. For some, it means 'turning down Wharton for Ross, because Ross is a better fit'- and so on. When you commercialise, would a mentor still be able to collect fees from a mentee whom he or she thinks really shldn't be looking at business school? Or how about a mentor who ends up getting everyone into 'not so famous schools', simply because those schools were the best fits for their mentees in the first place?

It's a tricky issue. Personally, I rather stand on the side of volunteering the time that I can spare, than to potentially put myself in a situation where I have to compromise, and not do what I think is right.

So questions, please

(PS, my offer still stands- if anyone who comes from a purely non-profit background is interested in business school, I am willing to be a more 'hands-on' buddy to guide you through the process. Just send me a private message.)

Jason

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