MoronFisher:
I'm a current student in CMU's MSCF program. I thought I'd share a few comments about the program.
First off, the program is great and I'm not known to be a cheerleader. If anything, I tend towards sarcastic and critical. When I look back, I'm amazed at how much has been packed into the semesters. Most of the people I know are doing school work 12+ hours a day.
eople struggle with different types of classes reflecting the diversity of backgrounds. We have math and physics PhDs, professional programmers, experienced derivatives traders, etc. There must be a few students who ace everything but I haven't met him/her yet. The program is dominated by international students from Asia. I don't think I've ever been around a group this smart ever. I feel quite average... and very often below. There's been quite a few times where I think I've come to a very elegant solution to a problem and found out half the class came to the same solution in about half the time. My first point is that don't come to this program assuming you will outshine everyone with your brilliance... unless you came from a PhD program or something like that. If you are coming from industry, you're in for a nice surprise.One thing I need to point out is that the MSCF degree is an odd bird. On the one hand, it could be a light PhD. On the other, maybe it is a technically focused MBA. The two sides are miles apart... much wider than I ever thought. This is obvious from interviews where one student may be asked to solve some partial differential equations and another might only get questions about the markets. This is a double-edged sword. If you don't come into the program with a clue on how you intend to market yourself, you probably won't do well. The mid-career switch can work and the MSCF degree can help a lot but it won't suddenly transform a programmer into a viable candidate as a commodities trader.
Recruiting season is in high gear and many of the Sales/Trading and Research jobs have extended offers. I guarantee that you will not have time enough to prepare for recruiting season from the minute you step on campus. This is true for any program, I think. Companies are recruiting earlier and earlier. It's kind of ridiculous to interview before your first semester is over and you've learned anything useful but that's just the way it is. Start your job research before you get on campus or you will be blindsided.
I think every bulge bracket bank has come in for campus interviews(with the notable exception of Lehman opting to pick and choose out of our resume book). Goldman, the most prized, got involved in campus recruiting and as far as I know has extended two offers so far for New York trading groups. I expect a few more to come in for other areas. From a recruiting standpoint, there doesn't seem to be much sign that the banking industry problems have seeped into associate hiring. Deutsche Bank, Merrill UBS and Morgan have all made significant showing. JP Morgan I think views the program as PhD light and recruited for strategy only, no Sales and Trading jobs. Many of us have gotten offers from overseas. It seems Asia is recruiting heavily. I have an offer in hand and I'll probably take it unless Goldman comes knocking (highly doubtful).
I'm quite surprised by the lack of Risk Management programs coming to recruit. It may be that they come around later. I think it may say something about our program. So, if you really want to work in risk management, I suggest you do some more research before applying. Sales/Trading, Research and Strategy are kicking ass though.
The strongest candidates have three or more offers. Many have multiple offers from second-tier companies and are still shopping for better. Sales and Trading is the most sought after internship which is odd because it is also the area where MSCF skills matter the least. However, given the strength of recruiting for trading desks, I feel it signals a shift in how banks are likely to recruit in the future. Sorry, MBAs, but I think for sales and trading desks, the quant degrees will soon obsolete your degree. Btw, if you want a job on a trading desk, I suggest you start trading a personal portfolio now and start reading the WSJ and Barron's everyday. Being able to derive Black-Scholes means nothing if you can't talk intelligently about rates, fx, fixed income and macroeconomics. In trading interviews, I got questions about the markets in Hong Kong, Treasury yield curves in 2005, ECB policy, current vs. historic implied volatility... everything except math questions. If you think you will just cram and memorize stuff like the DJIA and S&
500, you'll find that everyone does that. Anyway, I think if you aren't genuinely interested in this stuff, you will be at a severe disadvantage because there are people just as smart as you who are very interested in this stuff.You quickly realize that getting a job is far from a meritocracy. Some of our best students are still looking while some lesser ones have gotten offers from 1st tier firms. Going back to my earlier point, I think the people who are doing the worst are the ones who are switching careers without having really put enough effort into researching the switch. The Chinese students are among the most brilliant but don't make much effort to socialize outside of their group. This is a big mistake as many of the non-Chinese have significant work experience and I've learned a lot by talking to them about their experience.
The school does a lot to prepare people for interviews. I think this is one thing that CMU does better than other schools. In some schools, it is obvious that they see themselves as places of higher learning and look upon professional degrees with thinly veiled disgust.
rinceton is an example. There's a reason why Princeton doesn't have an MBA program. It seems that everyone at CMU understands what a professional degree is and meant to do. If you've been in academia as I have, you understand the macho, intellectual pissing contests that dominate the culture. The MSCF culture is much closer to an MBA culture where being prepared and getting the job is the highest priority for not only students but everyone involved in the program.The only thing I think can be improved is knowledge transfer from one generation to another. Many of the clubs, for example, do more harm than good. The Finance Club is run by MBAs who, frankly, are completely clueless. I had my resume reviewed by an MBA and could barely contain my laughter at the suggestions. I did however, take his advice to change fonts and for that I am grateful. The problem is that MSCF students are not the type to run for student body and organize events. MBAs, on the other hand, have nothing better to do. Unfortunately, this means that there are too few structures in place for organized knowledge transfer.
Oh, one more thing. Being in New York, the learning by videoconfernce can be incredibly annoying. There is often static on the line due to cell-phone interference (because the damn Pittsburgh students won't turn off their phones). I think being in New York gives you much better networking opportunities. For example, we often have speakers come in, usually MDs, and they almost always come to the NY campus. That said, I am absolutely sure that many people have screwed themselves with their networking. Let's face it... if you are new to finance, no matter how much you prepare, the chances of looking like an idiot within the first two months is quite high. Unfortunately, that's when all the networking is supposed to happen. I suggest that in the first two months, you use that time to network carefully with lower ranked people so you don't shoot yourself in the foot. If you follow my advice, being on Pittsburgh campus makes a lot more sense.
To sum it all up... If you are thinking about the program, I give it a big thumbs up. However, before you spend your money and time really take an objective look at your story. If you are a programmer that now wants to trade rates derivatives, know in advance that you are competing with people who have profiles that are much stronger than you for trading. It will be an uphill fight. If you are realistic and have a plan of attack, I think CMU will be a great choice.
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qwert:
Must say this is a great story told by yet another MFE student, moronfish.
I especially like the rhetorical beginning "...I'm not known to be a cheerleader. If anything, I tend towards sarcastic and critical". Really set the stage for an ironical piece.
Well, at least you are truthful about the fact that "Many of us have gotten offers from overseas. It seems Asia is recruiting heavily". Is that your unique way of saying that many of you have problems getting jobs in nyc and london?
I like this too: "JP Morgan I think views the program as PhD light and recruited for strategy only, no Sales and Trading jobs." At least JP Morgan is open about the value of mfe/mscf grads. My firm, for example, recruits mfe grads for s&t positions, but, surprise, surprise, nobody from CMU MSCF got an offer. Most mfe are relegated to roles in IT, or quant developer, which is not the same as quant.
This following comment is especially funny when read after the previous:"Sorry MBAs, but I think for sales and trading desks, the quant degrees will soon obsolete your degree." By your own admission, firms like JP Morgan already disdain mscf for s&t positions, and you have the cheek to laugh at the MBAs? My advice is to wipe that grin off your face because "Sorry MFEs, but I think for trading desks, the quant undergrad and PhD degress will soon obsolete your degree. As for the sales desk, they have, and will, always be interested in the more eloquent MBAs over the MFEs."
Seems that any piece that praises an mfe program is warmly welcomed in this forum, regardless of its veracity. Funny thing is this is suppose to be a forum for quant-oriented people, who makes decision based on mathematically or statistical hard facts. But when it concerns their own well-being, everyone suddenly becomes irrational and sees only what they want to see.
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MoronFisher:
It sounds like you have some sort of complex. Relax. Where's all the hostility coming from?
I meant to give you a highlight of recruiting, not argue numbers. I don't have the exact numbers but my impression is it is healthy. Maybe your firm doesn't see the value of an MFE degree on a trading desk but so far everyone else seems to and yes, most of the jobs are in NY or London. Most of the Asian offers came months ago and are used as backups. Your standards must be pretty high. Just counting the offers from Sales/Trading NY and London from GS, MS, Merrill, DB, I count 20 to 22 offers. I stopped keeping track so that doesn't even include results for UBS, Bear, Barcap, etc... I think that's pretty good for 75 job seekers, especially when half the class is going for research jobs. Wharton graduates 900 people a year... what's the conversion rate for them? My own recruiting experience was more than satisfactory.
You're right that MFEs in general don't have the eloquence of an MBA and in general, the deep quant skills of a PhD (excluding the math and Physics PhDs enrolled). So, if we can very clearly divide the work in Sales and Trading into technical/no eloquence required and the eloquent/no technical required categories, I guess your point is valid and there really is no real need for MFEs.
If you live in a world where eloquence is mutually exclusive from technical skills, I see your point too. I think it is the same world where 'big-picture thinkers' can't be bothered with the details. In my world, I know a ton of people who do both.
Anyway, do you really learn to be eloquent in an MBA or do those people just gravitate there. What happens when some of them decide they want technical skills as well? I will make a bet that in 5 years, the top 10 MBA programs will all begin offering a "quant" track.
Btw, you are a PhD aren't you?
hD's in particular seem to have particular disdain for MFEs. They can be some of the most brilliant but insecure people I've ever met.Btw, qwert. If you really are trying to save us, why not tell us where you work and what general area (research?) so that future MFEs know not to apply there? It sounds like MFEs would be miserable working there so save us the aggravation.
-- by 会员 mhe2 (2009/12/20 15:52:09)
