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标题: [讨论] UNC vs Vanderbilt with Scholarship? [打印本页]

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 11:31
标题: [讨论] UNC vs Vanderbilt with Scholarship?

Hi, all,

Give me some suggestions on the school to choose. About one month ago, I got the admission from UNC, and so far I haven't been notified any scholarship. And yesterday, I was also admitted by Vanderbilt with $20,000 USD merit-based scholarship every year.

BW ranks UNC as 17 and Vandy as 30. I believe that both schools carry good reputation in US.

I have been working for 2.5 year, so I dont have much personal savings to finance all the fees for my MBA. I will choose to loan or partially sponsored by my family.

So which school do you think I shall go, regarding the job placement, the quality vs price and future career development?

I want to develop my career in the general management.

Thank you so much!

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-6 12:31:28编辑过]

作者: sjseido 时间: 2007-3-6 11:53
How much are the total tuition and fees of both schools?

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 12:11

UNC's estimated annual tuition plus living expenses are a little above $62,000 USD.

Vanderbilt: $60,311 USD

Both are expensive.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-6 12:13:45编辑过]

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 12:17
Can the school alumni or current students provide any job placement data for the Chinese students?

作者: sjseido 时间: 2007-3-6 12:22

To my knowledge, you need to balance your area of concentration,its related job placement and network and the school strength to make your decision. The budget sholdn't be your first concern if you can afford both.

BTW, you could see recent posts by Bettywush, she has been doing valuable research of Vandy. Good luck!

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 12:28

Thank you, sjseido.

Bettywush also concern about the Vandy's job placement for the international students. But there is no touch on UNC from her post.

作者: teedayu 时间: 2007-3-6 15:26
Vanderbilt is rabbish, absolute UNC

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 17:49

teedayu,

I have read several of your posts. Your words are very poignant and impressive. Could you give me the reasons why to choose UNC instead of Vandy with the scholarship?

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-6 18:40

small-head,

suggest you to contact 高兴 who is currently Vanderbilt student. she has been to UNC and met Chinese students there for a project, together with other students from the TOP schools. She said no Chinese students in UNC had got internship yet while several of the Vanderbilt Chinese students got more than one internship offer. I don't mean UNC is not good, but it is more up to the individual.

高兴 can provide you a lot of helpful information. She is super nice. She was admitted by UNC, too. You may want to know why she chose Vanderbilt over UNC and how she felt now from her trip to UNC.

I hope the above information is helpful. It is up to you on your decision.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-6 18:43:23编辑过]

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-6 18:44

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-6 12:17:00的发言：
Can the school alumni or current students provide any job placement data for the Chinese students?

You can get their data from their website.

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 23:18

Which website? The school website? Usually the school website post the data for all the students instead of Chinese students only.

Could you kindly provide me a link?

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-6 23:39

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-6 23:18:00的发言：

Which website? The school website? Usually the school website post the data for all the students instead of Chinese students only.

Could you kindly provide me a link?

Strongly suggest you to contact 高兴, she is very helpful. Please...

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-6 23:51

Thank you, bettywushh. You are sweet. I will contact 高兴 definitely.

On the other side, I also contact the current UNC students and its alumni for more detailed information. At least so far, from UNC's website, its yahoo admission group, its admit package, its alumni and its current students and admission officers, I can tell that UNC is a very good school.

Can I have your MSN or Email? I have already messaged you.

作者: hohoo 时间: 2007-3-6 23:59
UNC is a nice school, having a beautiful campus. Even Chapel Hill is a small town, but during the cherry blooming season, it is docorated like a charming girl. Very sweet!

Since I am just grad student, I can only tell you the general condition there. UNC is not far from Duke, there are basically 3 universities around that "triangle" place, which is famous for the new booming technology industries.

Vanderbilt is also a very nice one. It is like an orange and apply question, a little different is, in the game, Money plays some weight.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-7 0:02:21编辑过]

作者: vaccination 时间: 2007-3-7 00:08

lz可以分享一下背景吗？第几round申请的？感激

作者: hanhardy 时间: 2007-3-7 00:40

UNC 有那么差么？ Vanderbilt 有那么好么？一身冷汗。

bettywushh 能不能post 点详细信息，UNC 曾经一度是我考虑的对象，看来选校还是有很大盲目性，那么，对不满意的学校何不从开始就置之门外？

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-7 02:14

以下是引用hanhardy在2007-3-7 0:40:00的发言：

UNC 有那么差么？ Vanderbilt 有那么好么？一身冷汗。

bettywushh 能不能post 点详细信息，UNC 曾经一度是我考虑的对象，看来选校还是有很大盲目性，那么，对不满意的学校何不从开始就置之门外？

I never say UNC is a bad school. It is definately a good school. My point is, it is more up to the indivdual's effort on success.

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-7 02:23
标题: Vanderbilt vs. UNC
现在才看到这个贴，抱歉没有早一点回复。

我绝对不赞同上面某位同学所说的Vanderbilt (Vandy)是烂校的说法。虽然UNC的排名比Vandy靠前，但到如今已经上完3/8 MBA program的我从来没有后悔过当初自己放弃UNC, 选择Vandy的决定。这大半年来，我在Vandy, Owen school的经历90%是very positive的，虽然有一些小小遗憾（可以通过Owen blog www.owenbloggers.com进行了解，我和我的同学都有谈到这个话题），但我看到学校一直在聆听我们的声音，也一直在不断努力改善。

当初我选择Vandy的原因主要是：1。 Full scholarship; 2。Owen alumni。第一个原因不说自明，MBA 两年$75,000 tuition不是个小数目.I appreciated Vandy's generous finanical support and I took it for a recognition of my value to the school. How nice it is! 据我有限的了解，Vandy在奖学金的资源方面远比UNC来得充足，而且Vandy strategically uses the resource to attract outstanding students。在我的班级里就有好几个跟我一样放弃了UNC的admission。

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-7 02:52
第二个原因，Owen alum are terrific. 当我在Vandy和UNC之间左右为难时，Owen alum gave me a nice push on my decision. 他们通过各种方式为我提供信息，帮我联系教授来解答关于学业方面的问题，联系海内外的相关校友来解答我的关于就业方面的问题，这些都给我留下了深刻的印象。相比之下，UNC给我的印象是比较arrogant, 有点“你来不来无所谓“的意味。当然这个可能只是我个人的经历，but small things really make a difference.

Owen alum 的热心肠不光是体现在对prospective students上, 更重要的是对在校同学找工作的帮助方面。在我的summer internship job search中，我受到了众多校友，包括在Apple, FedEx, Heinz等等知名公司工作的校友的热情相助。因为Owen student body相对较小，所以同学和同学之间，以及同学和校友之间联系比起大规模的学校要来的紧密得多。

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-7 03:13
另外，就找工作而言，学校的CMC service诚然重要，但我的经历告诉我个人的background/experience, language/communication capability and personal networking 才是决定性的因素。

Vandy 和UNC在就业机会上差不多，因为都是在Southeast region, 所以这两所学校经常和其他几所在同一区域的top business schools (such as Emory, Duke and Virginia）一起举办职业论坛（招聘会），吸引大公司前来面试招聘。今年1月在Bay area 举行的West Coast Forum 和3月在Atlanta 举行的Southeastern MBA Schools Interview Forum就是很好的例子。

要承认的是，UNC的on campus recruitment的机会比较多一点（尤其是IT行业），毕竟UNC MBA班级的规模是Vandy的1.5倍而且排名靠前，但如我前面所说，personal networking 更为重要。很多的机会都是在个人的人际交往和网络的搜索中发现的。最后，是个人的素质和能力决定你能否找到好的工作，而不是学校的招牌决定。

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-7 03:21
总结一下，UNC and Vandy are both good schools. 可以说Vandy 把学生引进了和UNC同样的门槛里，但最后成功是靠校友，更靠个人。

究竟应该选择哪一所学校，没有一个绝对正确的答案。综合考虑cost and benefit，想清楚自己想要的是什么再做决定。

作者: hohoo 时间: 2007-3-7 03:25
顶一下，说得非常至情至理。

其实不管是apple还是orange，如果你选了，你就应该认为你的选择是正确的。后面就是谋事在人成事在天了。

作者: hanhardy 时间: 2007-3-7 04:19

以下是引用bettywushh在2007-3-7 2:14:00的发言：

I never say UNC is a bad school. It is definately a good school. My point is, it is more up to the indivdual's effort on success.

MM 莫急，没说你说过。是概论而已。

高兴同学的发言有理有据？比较中肯。让我们又加深了对一所学校的了解。

另外，vandy 给奖慷慨么？

作者: hanhardy 时间: 2007-3-7 04:37

刚去浏览了Owen 的网页， a nice school.

高兴同学能否简要介绍一下这几年华人毕业生的就业情况？

谢先！

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-7 13:42

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-7 2:52:00的发言：
第二个原因，Owen alum are terrific. 当我在Vandy和UNC之间左右为难时，Owen alum gave me a nice push on my decision. 他们通过各种方式为我提供信息，帮我联系教授来解答关于学业方面的问题，联系海内外的相关校友来解答我的关于就业方面的问题，这些都给我留下了深刻的印象。相比之下，UNC给我的印象是比较arrogant, 有点“你来不来无所谓“的意味。当然这个可能只是我个人的经历，but small things really make a difference.

Owen alum 的热心肠不光是体现在对prospective students上, 更重要的是对在校同学找工作的帮助方面。在我的summer internship job search中，我受到了众多校友，包括在Apple, FedEx, Heinz等等知名公司工作的校友的热情相助。因为Owen student body相对较小，所以同学和同学之间，以及同学和校友之间联系比起大规模的学校要来的紧密得多。

Current Owen students are terrific, too! I am in good contact with three Owen students, they all are very very nice and help me a lot! I am very much looking forward to knowing them better.

高兴is a very very nice girl. Everytime I mentioned her to other Owen students, their first response is "She is awesome!"

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-7 15:56

I applied for UNC at the first round, not the early decision round. If you want to apply UNC next year, please try the early round, since UNC is generous to give out the scholarship at the early decision round.

I applied for Vandy at the second round.

I have contacted the current students from both schools. They all gave me the information about the intern and job placement. I will continue to follow up.

There is a Vandy dinner reception tomorrow. I will make good use of this opportunity to chat more with their alumni and current students.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-7 15:57:16编辑过]

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-9 02:45
标题: 回复：（bettywushh）以下是引用高兴在2007-3-7 2:52:...
Thanks for saying that, Betty! I am just trying to return the helps I got from other Owen alum.

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-9 02:48
标题: 回复：（small_head）I applied for UNC at the first...
I will be very glad to hear what you think about Owen after the reception. Gary Scudder， our Associate Dean and Strategic Management core course professor, is there. He is a very nice person. Hope you have met him in the reception.

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-9 03:00
标题: 回复：（hanhardy）刚去浏览了Owen 的网页， a nice s...
可能是因为我们学校跟台湾有源远流长的关系，所以以前大陆学生招得比较少。比如说今年毕业的MBA班级中有6个台湾人但只有1个大陆人。我们这一届倒过来了，招了5个大陆人，1个台湾人。我问了一下2007年班级中的那个大陆学生找工作的情况，他的夏天实习是在田纳西州做的，但full time的工作，他本人倾向于回国发展。我想这是一个个例，不能代表我们学校中国同学就业的总体情况。现在我们班上的5个大陆同学全部已经找到了夏天实习的工作（在美国）。

作者: nautic 时间: 2007-3-9 13:10

刚看到这个帖子，也来说两句。我刚从Duke开车到Nashiville。Tennesse是一个很美的洲，Nashiville是City of Music。我就是一路听着Tennesse电台的乡村音乐开车穿越田纳西的原野。 2年也是人生的一部分。从生活的角度，Nashiville是一个非常好的地方，音乐，人文景观，自然景观一应俱全。

Make your own choice. Good luck!

作者: audreyTiffany 时间: 2007-3-9 16:18

校园好像不大哦，google earth上看

昨天上海聚餐怎么样，有没有在北京的活动啊？

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-11 20:33

呵呵，我对VANDY还是比较满意的。在上海跟他们的二年级学生一起混了两天，昨天晚上跟他们KTV到一点钟，累的不行了，跟其中的一个美国学生一整天在一起14个小时，问了很多问题，基本上比较满意。大部分的学生都非常热情，也有少部分redneck，但是不能太挑剔啦，人跟人总是不同的。

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-14 10:14

What kind of songs you karaoke? English songs?

I think Vandy people are nice. I have been socialized with one Vandy female student for two days, too.

I got the news that UNC global immersion elective (international trip) will be in China, including Beijing, Shanghai, etc in May. Another chance to get close to the b-school.

But the key is at that time I have already made the decision.

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-14 10:29

Vandy campus is about 323 acre, while UNC campus is more than 700 acre.

Vandy's campus is also a national arboretum while UNC campus is known as one of the most beautiful one in US.

作者: muzikfantasy 时间: 2007-3-14 10:39

BW对两校的评论

UNC: Job placement leaves most grads smiling, but international students may not have the same luck. Extracurricular activities and pleasant location add to the appeal.

Vandy: Students laud the overall experience at Owen. Grads say that rigorous curriculum leaves them well equipped for future careers.

作者: hanhardy 时间: 2007-3-14 11:34

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-9 3:00:00的发言：
可能是因为我们学校跟台湾有源远流长的关系，所以以前大陆学生招得比较少。比如说今年毕业的MBA班级中有6个台湾人但只有1个大陆人。我们这一届倒过来了，招了5个大陆人，1个台湾人。我问了一下2007年班级中的那个大陆学生找工作的情况，他的夏天实习是在田纳西州做的，但full time的工作，他本人倾向于回国发展。我想这是一个个例，不能代表我们学校中国同学就业的总体情况。现在我们班上的5个大陆同学全部已经找到了夏天实习的工作（在美国）。

Sounds cheerful~~

作者: flyingmonkey 时间: 2007-3-14 11:54
cons

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 13:31
哇，姐姐，你有没有良心的，我当初可是热情地和你联系，听说你来上海出差，特地从苏州跑去上海和你吃饭。你来unc,我因为study group没见到你，但我们中国同学倾巢而出和你聚餐。 crystal 拿到dell 的offer 去austin 参观，也特地订了个双人房邀你同往，我们全体unc的中国同学都没把你外人看。

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-15 13:37

ls talk to 高兴？

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-15 13:37:28编辑过]

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 13:38

以下是引用teedayu在2007-3-6 15:26:00的发言：
Vanderbilt is rabbish, absolute UNC

although I am UNC alumni, I do not agree with your very unprofessional comment.Vanderbilt is a great school either.

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-15 13:44

Both are good, then I still have to choose one. But in this game, money puts on some weight.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 13:50

哇，姐姐，你有没有良心的，我当初可是热情地和你联系，听说你来上海出差，特地从苏州跑去上海和你吃饭。你来unc,我因为study group没见到你，但我们中国同学倾巢而出和你聚餐。 crystal 拿到dell 的offer 去austin 参观，也特地订了个双人房邀你同往，我们全体unc的中国同学都没把你外人看。

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 14:03

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-7 3:21:00的发言：
总结一下，UNC and Vandy are both good schools. 可以说Vandy 把学生引进了和UNC同样的门槛里，但最后成功是靠校友，更靠个人。

究竟应该选择哪一所学校，没有一个绝对正确的答案。综合考虑cost and benefit，想清楚自己想要的是什么再做决定。

确实，不过以我个人找工作的经验而谈，UNC的校友实在让我感动，我进了UNC后被各行各业的机会所迷惑（IB,CONSULTING,MARKETING,FINANCE,INVESTMENT)，很晚才决定自己真正想干什么（PRIVATE WEALTH MANAGEMENT)，我是在各大IB的把intern的offer发完后，才开始找相关的intern,我得到了unc在各大IB的帮助，包括morgan stanley, goldman sachs, citibank, bank of america......, 但因为其中七个在merrill lynch的校友打电话给我，最终帮我拿到了一个面试机会。虽然我不一定能进merrill lynch，但我当初选择UNC（没奖）而放弃其他有奖的学校实在是太值了,the alumni network of unc will benefit you all your life!

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 14:08

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-3-15 14:03:00的发言：

确实，不过以我个人找工作的经验而谈，UNC的校友实在让我感动，我进了UNC后被各行各业的机会所迷惑（IB,CONSULTING,MARKETING,FINANCE,INVESTMENT)，很晚才决定自己真正想干什么（PRIVATE WEALTH MANAGEMENT)，我是在各大IB的把intern的offer发完后，才开始找相关的intern,我得到了unc在各大IB的帮助，包括morgan stanley, goldman sachs, citibank, bank of america......, 但因为实在是太晚了，很多校友最后的努力都没有结果，其中七个在merrill lynch的校友打电话给我，最终帮我拿到了一个面试机会。虽然我不一定能进merrill lynch，但我当初选择UNC（没奖）而放弃其他有奖的学校实在是太值了,the alumni network of unc will benefit you all your life!

确实，不过以我个人找工作的经验而谈，UNC的校友实在让我感动，我进了UNC后被各行各业的机会所迷惑（IB,CONSULTING,MARKETING,FINANCE,INVESTMENT)，很晚才决定自己真正想干什么（PRIVATE WEALTH MANAGEMENT)，我是在各大IB的把intern的offer发完后，才开始找相关的intern,我得到了unc在各大IB的帮助，包括morgan stanley, goldman sachs, citibank, bank of america......, 但因为实在是太晚了，很多校友最后的努力都没有结果，其中七个在merrill lynch的校友打电话给我，帮我争取面试机会。有6个失败了，但最终有一个成功帮我拿到了一个面试机会，直接和亚太区的MANAGING DIRECTOR面试。虽然我不一定能进merrill lynch，但我当初选择UNC（没奖）而放弃其他有奖的学校实在是太值了,the alumni network of unc will benefit you all your life!

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-15 14:28

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-15 13:37:00的发言：

ls talk to 高兴？

抱歉，很久没来发贴了，搞得颠三倒四的。

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-15 14:54

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-3-15 14:08:00的发言：

确实，不过以我个人找工作的经验而谈，UNC的校友实在让我感动，我进了UNC后被各行各业的机会所迷惑（IB,CONSULTING,MARKETING,FINANCE,INVESTMENT)，很晚才决定自己真正想干什么（PRIVATE WEALTH MANAGEMENT)，我是在各大IB的把intern的offer发完后，才开始找相关的intern,我得到了unc在各大IB的帮助，包括morgan stanley, goldman sachs, citibank, bank of america......, 但因为实在是太晚了，很多校友最后的努力都没有结果，其中七个在merrill lynch的校友打电话给我，帮我争取面试机会。有6个失败了，但最终有一个成功帮我拿到了一个面试机会，直接和亚太区的MANAGING DIRECTOR面试。虽然我不一定能进merrill lynch，但我当初选择UNC（没奖）而放弃其他有奖的学校实在是太值了,the alumni network of unc will benefit you all your life!

Very impressive! I am impressed by the influence of b-school alumni.

作者: muzikfantasy 时间: 2007-3-15 15:09

找个硬币翻一下吧

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-16 01:51

以下是引用bettywushh在2007-3-6 18:40:00的发言：

small-head,

高兴 can provide you a lot of helpful information. She is super nice. She was admitted by UNC, too. You may want to know why she chose Vanderbilt over UNC and how she felt now from her trip to UNC.

I hope the above information is helpful. It is up to you on your decision.

congratulations to vanderbilt student. As far as I know, 高兴 got offers mostly from off-campus search and she started pretty earlier. UNC attracted many on-compus opportunities, so we did not do it. I began off-campus research just recently. by the way, 3 out 5 chinese student got US offers from citigroup, dell and polypore respectively. One canadian chinese got offer from investment banking. I am still working on private wealth management divison in investment bank, just passed the first round interview with merrill lynch. another chinese student is looking for opportunities in real estate, usually US companies do not recruit international students. but because one of UNC's strength in real estate, he got several interviews under process, and ususally real estate firms recruit pretty late.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-16 02:16

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-15 14:54:00的发言：

Very impressive! I am impressed by the influence of b-school alumni.

yes, it is just like the situation that you want to apply for the top schools after they have all announced their offers. You are told "sorry, no opportunities" as expected, you know it is something impossible, but one day one alumnus tell you "I managed to land an application opportunity for you." How do you feel?

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-16 02:31

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-15 13:44:00的发言：

Both are good, then I still have to choose one. But in this game, money puts on some weight.

hi, As I have emphasized in our discussion, alumni network is one of the most important factors when you value a business school. and when you evaluate the network, you need to consider two factors: the willingness of the alumni to help you and the capability of them to help you. My experience is that UNC alumni are both willing and able to help you. Another example is one alumnus from credit suissee (VP) is already 62 years old, although his schedule is heavily engaged, although we did not know each other, he helped me to submit resume to HR and mocked interviews with me twice. he was aware it was very likely that he was wasting time because I missed the deadline, he still did so because he got an email from a UNC MBA - me. I do not konw about other b-schools, so do you research and make your decision. good luck!

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-16 22:52
wenzhang 兄弟，首先请你消消火。你说UNC的中国同学从来没有把我当外人看待，
这个千真万确。但我也从来没有把你们当外人看待呀。Crystal有一家公司的面试，我帮她联系我在那家公司工作的朋友，帮她networking，也邀请她春假的时候一起去那个朋友所在的城市去度假滑雪. J同学圣诞节想带全家去Orlando玩，是我建议他怎样找旅行社安排一切呀。

第二，在我的回帖里，我尽量做到客观。我想我已经写得很清楚当初我自己选择Vandy的原因是什么，也说了那是我个人的经验和感受，写出来只是供同时拿到两间学校的同学参考。我说了"究竟应该选择哪一所学校，没有一个绝对正确的答案。综合考虑cost and benefit，想清楚自己想要的是什么再做决定。" 难道这是没有良心么？难道我写UNC好呀，大家都应该去UNC才叫做有良心么？

最后我想说：我们是朋友，不是敌人。我希望在UNC的，在Vandy的，以及在美国其他学校读MBA的所有中国同学实现自己的梦想。祝你早日找到暑假实习的工作！

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-16 23:30

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-16 22:52:00的发言：
wenzhang 兄弟，首先请你消消火。hehe, it is ok. I am not angry你说UNC的中国同学从来没有把我当外人看待，
这个千真万确。但我也从来没有把你们当外人看待呀。Crystal有一家公司的面试，我帮她联系我在那家公司工作的朋友，帮她networking，也邀请她春假的时候一起去那个朋友所在的城市去度假滑雪. god, she did not tell me. I hope to join you. J同学圣诞节想带全家去Orlando玩，是我建议他怎样找旅行社安排一切呀。yes, it is true.

第二，在我的回帖里，我尽量做到客观。我想我已经写得很清楚当初我自己选择Vandy的原因是什么，也说了那是我个人的经验和感受，写出来只是供同时拿到两间学校的同学参考。我说了"究竟应该选择哪一所学校，没有一个绝对正确的答案。综合考虑cost and benefit，想清楚自己想要的是什么再做决定。" 难道这是没有良心么？But you said UNC is arrogrant, I can not agree with it. 难道我写UNC好呀，大家都应该去UNC才叫做有良心么？it is not necessary, every student has his own passion and commitment to his own school.

最后我想说：我们是朋友，不是敌人。sure. good good friend.我希望在UNC的，在Vandy的，以及在美国其他学校读MBA的所有中国同学实现自己的梦想。祝你早日找到暑假实习的工作！thank you.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-17 03:16

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-16 22:52:00的发言：
wenzhang 兄弟，首先请你消消火。你说UNC的中国同学从来没有把我当外人看待，
这个千真万确。但我也从来没有把你们当外人看待呀。Crystal有一家公司的面试，我帮她联系我在那家公司工作的朋友，帮她networking，as far as I know, crystal got 4 offers from dell, citigroup, R.j reynaldo (the 2nd biggest tobacco company in US) and redhat respectively, and she declined several invitations for interveiws. which company did she seek your help for networking. With 6 years of experience in IBM, she is most interested in microsoft, but there are alumni in microsoft.

也邀请她春假的时候一起去那个朋友所在的城市去度假滑雪. J同学圣诞节想带全家去Orlando玩，是我建议他怎样找旅行社安排一切呀。

第二，在我的回帖里，我尽量做到客观。我想我已经写得很清楚当初我自己选择Vandy的原因是什么，也说了那是我个人的经验和感受，写出来只是供同时拿到两间学校的同学参考。我说了"究竟应该选择哪一所学校，没有一个绝对正确的答案。综合考虑cost and benefit，想清楚自己想要的是什么再做决定。" 难道这是没有良心么？难道我写UNC好呀，大家都应该去UNC才叫做有良心么？

最后我想说：我们是朋友，不是敌人。我希望在UNC的，在Vandy的，以及在美国其他学校读MBA的所有中国同学实现自己的梦想。祝你早日找到暑假实习的工作！

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-18 09:32

以下是引用高兴在2007-3-16 22:52:00的发言：
wenzhang 兄弟，首先请你消消火。你说UNC的中国同学从来没有把我当外人看待，
这个千真万确。但我也从来没有把你们当外人看待呀。Crystal有一家公司的面试，我帮她联系我在那家公司工作的朋友，帮她networking，哦，虽然crystal最后谢绝了那个公司round 3 的面试邀请，但还是要谢谢你。作为回报，贵校的一位同学想知道johnson and johnson 中国区的实习情况，crystal 也积极帮她联系我们在johnson and johnson 中国区实习过的校友去聊，以了解真实信息。UNC校友网覆盖美国各大公司，如果有我们能帮忙的，请别客气。

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-3-18 10:24
UNC Network - America's most reliable network

UNC has the fewest dropped calls of any network

UNC, raising the bar

Hehe, I am just kidding :-)

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-3-18 12:11

不错,大家互助友爱.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-18 23:10

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-6 11:31:00的发言：

Hi, all,

BW ranks UNC as 17 and Vandy as 30. I believe that both schools carry good reputation in US.

I have been working for 2.5 year, so I dont have much personal savings to finance all the fees for my MBA. I will choose to loan or partially sponsored by my family.

So which school do you think I shall go, regarding the job placement, the quality vs price and future career development?

I want to develop my career in the general management.

Thank you so much!

hi, regarding the placement in consulting, I happened to talk to a 2nd-year in consulting club yesterday, he said up to now, at least 35 students got full-time offer from well-known consulting firms, 10 from deloitte and 7 from Mckinsey , and the rest from BCG, Bain, AT Kearny, Booz Allen Hamilton...

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-18 23:25

small_head,

I am sorry for my wrong estimation given to you last week based on my estimation of internship offers. To my knowledge, about 8-10 UNC students confirmed internships to well-known consulting firms, but I truely do not have statistics about internship, some students got offers from both IB and consulting, some got from consulting and real estate, and they are still hesitiating. (the pay from real estate companies is usually more than consulting and workload is much less)

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-3-18 23:50

Hi, how many students applied for the consulting?

at least 35 students got full-time offer from well-known consulting firms

I need to ask 高兴 about the consulting job placement data from Vandy.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-3-19 0:11:49编辑过]

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-3-18 23:58

以下是引用small_head在2007-3-18 23:50:00的发言：

Hi, how many students want to go to consulting?

I am not sure at present , because interviews with real estate companies probablly have not been finished yet, maybe there will be some firms coming to UNC for on-compus interviews later. The statistics may be availalbe in May.

作者: ALLANFORD 时间: 2007-3-19 10:09

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-3-18 23:58:00的发言：
I am not sure at present , because interviews with real estate companies probablly have not been finished yet, maybe there will be some firms coming to UNC for on-compus interviews later. The statistics may be availalbe in May.

WENZHANG 同学, 读一年纪还这么有时间为UNC 做代言人, 不错, 以后就选你做UNC 的中国区大使吧.

付一句, 我马上要从UNC 毕业了. 在UNC 的两年不能只用愉快来做个结论. 更多的是挑战, 有熬夜的辛苦, 有很多感动, 最后有很多激情. 最喜欢的是看到UNC 和DUKE 的篮球赛, 号称美国最RIVALRY 的篮球赛, 让这两年的MBA 更加完整.

当然的确奖学金是很大的考虑因素. 所以去哪个学校都是可以理解的.

作者: vicomte 时间: 2007-3-19 10:25

想问一下ls的JJ

UNC的奖学金是怎么发放的，我看信里好像说录取通知发出来之后过段时间再发奖学金的通知，是这样吗？一般中国学生能那多少奖学金？

作者: ALLANFORD 时间: 2007-3-19 10:35
UNC 的奖学金大概在发出电子录取信的两小时后再发一封信会告知.

作者: vicomte 时间: 2007-3-19 10:46

oh, no hope.

thanks...

作者: 蜜码 时间: 2007-3-27 06:46
I compared the benefit and cost. Hope we can meet each other in Vandy.

作者: 蜜码 时间: 2007-3-27 06:49
By the way, I agree with the opinion that we should be friends whatever schools we are and will enroll in.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-5 07:23

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-3-15 14:08:00的发言：

确实，不过以我个人找工作的经验而谈，UNC的校友实在让我感动，我进了UNC后被各行各业的机会所迷惑（IB,CONSULTING,MARKETING,FINANCE,INVESTMENT)，很晚才决定自己真正想干什么（PRIVATE WEALTH MANAGEMENT)，我是在各大IB的把intern的offer发完后，才开始找相关的intern,我得到了unc在各大IB的帮助，包括morgan stanley, goldman sachs, citibank, bank of america......, 但因为实在是太晚了，很多校友最后的努力都没有结果，其中七个在merrill lynch的校友打电话给我，帮我争取面试机会。有6个失败了，但最终有一个成功帮我拿到了一个面试机会，直接和亚太区的MANAGING DIRECTOR面试。虽然我不一定能进merrill lynch，但我当初选择UNC（没奖）而放弃其他有奖的学校实在是太值了,the alumni network of unc will benefit you all your life!

今天拿到了Merrill Lynch global private client division 的
offer, 更深刻地体会到开学时一位学长说的话，UNC的校友圈才是UNC MBA PROGRAM的最大财富。虽然我的背景有相似的地方，但如果不是有同是managing director 的Merrill Lynch 的校友帮忙，我连面试机会都没有。从2月初决定试试运气到现在，所有的private wealth management 方向的一年级同学(7位）+ 2位二年级+无数已毕业校友和我分享过面试/工作经验。在上周三去L.A.作最后一轮长达6.5小时（从早上7：30的breakfast interview到下午2：00结束的lunch interview）的面试之前，两位Merrill Lynch 的校友还特地电话帮我mock了一下。
美国人对学校的感情实在是让人感动。在这里也顺便感谢一下高兴同学和其他cd上关心我进展的朋友们。祝大家都能早日找到理想的internship.

作者: vicomte 时间: 2007-4-5 14:15
cong Wenzhang，不过你怎么跑到LA去面试啊，你的career goal是IB吗？

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-4-5 16:57

Congratulation to Wen Zhang! You are great!

Could you please introduce a little bit about Private Wealth Management? Could you tell us what kind of background and qualification that fit the private wealth management?

You must be very aggressive to seek the intern in IB!

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-6 00:26

以下是引用vicomte在2007-4-5 14:15:00的发言：
cong Wenzhang，不过你怎么跑到LA去面试啊，你的career goal是IB吗？

我目前的career goal是private wealth management, 简单点说就是高端客户理财，其实很注重销售能力和沟通技巧。是INVESTMENT BANK的业务之一。去L.A是因为我申请的中国的（亚太区)职位，而负责亚太区的managing director在L.A.,我上班地点可以选HONG KONG，L.A.或SAN FRANCISCO.intern 就在西岸玩一玩， full-time我还是想回hong kong,开展业务方便点。

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-6 00:32

以下是引用small_head在2007-4-5 16:57:00的发言：

Congratulation to Wen Zhang! You are great!

Could you please introduce a little bit about Private Wealth Management? Could you tell us what kind of background and qualification that fit the private wealth management?

You must be very aggressive to seek the intern in IB!

You can read the detailed introducation about PWM after you come to UNC. To be brief, private wealth management is to help rich guys arrange and invest their wealth. there is no specific background requirement, as long as you have good communication skills and passion for it. you can make it. IB and consulting are the two industries that care background least, but probablly care your communication skills most.

作者: irenelee 时间: 2007-4-6 00:35
LZ 决定去什么学校了吗？UNC 的同学很好啊，比如WenZhang，总是很乐意帮助我们，提供学校的信息。

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-4-6 0:36:56编辑过]

作者: elaine9894 时间: 2007-4-6 02:01
Definitely Vanderbilt, I heard their career center is very helpful to international students. Besides, $65,000 is a lot of money, I wouldn't want to take this financial burden to go through the already challenging MBA program.

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-4-6 10:21
Congratulations to Wen Zhang!!! I know that getting into private wealth management is by no means an easy task and you cracked it - I am proud of you!

作者: 高兴 时间: 2007-4-6 10:32
标题: 回复：（elaine9894）Definitely Vanderbilt, I heard...
Welcome all the incoming new students!!!

I am so happy to see that the chinese team is growing fast in Owen and I hope that those who receive sholarship from the school will not only stand out in your class, but also make your contribution to Owen community by sharing your knowledge, promoting Chinese culture and helping others succeed. Keep in mind that we are here not only to take, but to give.

Give, live and love. Cheers!!!

作者: vicomte 时间: 2007-4-6 10:43

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-4-6 0:26:00的发言：

类似Private Banking吧，我现在还cover一点呢，呵呵

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-6 11:38

以下是引用vicomte在2007-4-6 10:43:00的发言：

类似Private Banking吧，我现在还cover一点呢，呵呵

exactly the same thing

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-6 11:51

以下是引用高兴在2007-4-6 10:21:00的发言：
Congratulations to Wen Zhang!!! I know that getting into private wealth management is by no means an easy task and you cracked it - I am proud of you!

谢谢，可惜UNC以前的校友都不怎么了解CHASEDREAM,所以在这里对unc的介绍少了点，很多人觉得UNC很闷骚，让你误会UNC很arrogant,确实是很可惜，其实校友是很nice的，对学校充满了感情，尤其因为unc的篮球很强，所以校友间很有凝聚力。（乔丹来庆祝夺冠25周年的时候， b-school 附近能听到排山倒海的欢呼）我们这一届只有5个大陆同学，而UNC发给中国的OFFER其实不少，就是因为不了解UNC，所以没来。我所能做的就是尽可能真实的反映unc的情况。希望更多的中国申请者了解UNC,并根据自身的情况，选择是否申请。

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-6 12:11

以下是引用elaine9894在2007-4-6 2:01:00的发言：
Definitely Vanderbilt, I heard their career center is very helpful to international students. Besides, $65,000 is a lot of money, I wouldn't want to take this financial burden to go through the already challenging MBA program.

钱确实很重要，看你如何平衡投资和职业机会&职业发展前景之间的关系吧。no matter what you choose, there is no definite right or wrong

作者: oo7 时间: 2007-4-6 13:08

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-4-6 11:51:00的发言：

所以我们不要老盯着top 10 ，这也需要更多的非top 10 的校友信息

作者: watchdog 时间: 2007-4-7 00:29
what is the difference between ranking 17 and 30?

I think many people who apply MBA in the US weigh the ranking of the
school too much. Unless you can get into those so call "Magic 7" or
IvyLeague schools, ranking really does not mean that much between those
top20-top50 schools. Every school has its pros and cons. Eventually,
your success of MBA education depends on your own personal skills and
the effort you make. B-school is like a spring board, how high you can
jump? It is your own business.

In terms of these two schools, both of them are pretty good. In your
case, I will choose Vanderbilt because of the scholarship unless there
is a concentration in UNC you know you definitely will go for it after
school. Otherwise, $40,000 is a big chunk of money for two years. If
you put that on your own loan, you also need to consider the interest
rate. Current prime is around 8%. You can do the calculation by
yourself.

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-4-7 12:22

以下是引用watchdog在2007-4-7 0:29:00的发言：
what is the difference between ranking 17 and 30?

I think many people who apply MBA in the US weigh the ranking of the
school too much. Unless you can get into those so call "Magic 7" or
IvyLeague schools, ranking really does not mean that much between those
top20-top50 schools. Every school has its pros and cons. Eventually,
your success of MBA education depends on your own personal skills and
the effort you make. B-school is like a spring board, how high you can
jump? It is your own business.

I echo you!

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-8 11:51
我觉得两位恐怕对两校的资源，就业机会，校友圈能力的差距了解得远远不够吧。

作者: zylee2000 时间: 2007-4-8 23:16

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-8 11:51:00的发言：
我觉得两位恐怕对两校的资源，就业机会，校友圈能力的差距了解得远远不够吧。

Can you say more about it?

LS如果了解可否多给我们写信息？

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-9 07:43

因为vandy给的奖比较多，UNC是我有可能申请到的学校，所以都作了些研究。我了解的可能也不算多，不过从CD上两校校友的笔墨和参加CD的讲座时收集的信息来看，VANDY找工作大概基本以OFF-CAMPUS为主（从拿全奖的同学都是off-campus为主来推断，理论上一般能拿全奖的同学应该是top student），UNC基本以on-campus为主，也就是说去UNC招人的大公司比VANDY多，在大公司任职的校友当然也就更多了。而且去UNC招人的投行/咨询以及其他大公司都还是挺知名的，但vandy好像没怎么说去on-campus招人的都是什么样的公司（也可能是我看漏了），也没怎么说拿到的offer都是什么。而且，从就业的数据如收入等来看，还是unc比较强。vandy给的奖挺诱人，不过有个念过TOP 15的MBA好友告诉我，如果我决定申请MBA，一定要从长远看。。。另外，听说OFF-CAMPUS找工作比较累，因为很多公司招人都有自己的core school。

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-9 12:25

以下是引用irenelee在2007-4-6 0:35:00的发言：
LZ 决定去什么学校了吗？UNC 的同学很好啊，比如WenZhang，总是很乐意帮助我们，提供学校的信息。

过奖，提供学校的信息是作为UNC学生的责任，尤其是当很多认都不认识的身居高位的校友百忙之中抽时间帮助你，不为别的，只是因为你是UNC的学生，你也一定会被感动，也一定会对学校充满感情。很多校友当初也是受到更老的校友帮助，所以帮助后辈才不遗余力，久而久之，形成一种传统。另外一个原因，就是UNC的篮球很强，当你在 dean dome球场和数万同学一起为本校球队呐喊助威时，当球队战胜强敌时，不认识的人都会击掌（give me five) 或hug 相互庆祝。所以同学间很有凝聚力，很多校友有时间还经常回学校看球。

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-4-9 14:24

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-9 7:43:00的发言：

UNC肯定是个好学校。为了避免像其他帖子一样吵翻天，这里先声明一下。：－）

Vandy on campus招聘怎样还是让高兴来说,我的了解有限.我接触的几个二年级学生找的工作都还不错.hswdream你被Vandy录取了吗?我收到的Vandy的package里,其中on campus这一块的招聘基本上所有的大公司都在里面，跟其他学校差不多。

另外,Vandy的中国学生比较少，估计这个也是在CD上信息比较少的缘故，有兴趣的可以去看Vandy学生的blog，上面不少信息。

作者: muzikfantasy 时间: 2007-4-9 20:56

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-9 7:43:00的发言：

UNC的学生比Vandy多50%，这也是去UNC招的人多和校友多的一个原因，平均到每个人身上的机会不会差多少。我只找到了Vandy网站上提供了校内招聘的数据，没找到UNC的。

以下是两校的就业统计:

http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/Programs/MBA/careerServices/placement.cfm

http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/Community/recruiters/how-to-recruit/employment-report/upload/06Employment_new.pdf

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-4-9 21:57

呵呵，有人说我太闲了，还再这个帖子里奋战，我闪。。。该去准备签证事宜了

作者: irenelee 时间: 2007-4-10 15:10

以下是引用wenzhang在2007-4-9 12:25:00的发言：

面试的时候我就提到UNC的校友很愿意帮助我们这些申请者，如果能够成为UNC的一员，我也愿意将这种传统发扬下去：）四月人刚过去三分之一，还在等待中！

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-11 10:14

以下是引用bettywushh在2007-4-9 14:24:00的发言：

UNC肯定是个好学校。为了避免像其他帖子一样吵翻天，这里先声明一下。：－）

另外,Vandy的中国学生比较少，估计这个也是在CD上信息比较少的缘故，有兴趣的可以去看Vandy学生的blog，上面不少信息。

我打算今年申请，有朋友在UCLA,darden,duke，UNC和emory念过MBA, 在加上参加cd的聚会，和一些人聊过。他们觉得我的背景可以冲一下15-18的学校，20-25应该没问题。25以后的学校拿奖应该没问题。我其实也想用最低的成本获得最大的效益。谁还跟钱有仇阿？只是念过MBA的都讲排名前20和20后的学校在北美不是一个档次，去学校招聘的公司，校友圈的能力和职业机会有挺大的差别。如果是牛人去哪个学校都没关系，但以我外企小职员的背景，去排名靠前的学校投资回报率会远大于排名靠后的学校。

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-11 10:24

以下是引用bettywushh在2007-4-9 14:24:00的发言：

UNC肯定是个好学校。为了避免像其他帖子一样吵翻天，这里先声明一下。：－）

另外,Vandy的中国学生比较少，估计这个也是在CD上信息比较少的缘故，有兴趣的可以去看Vandy学生的blog，上面不少信息。

基本上所有的大公司都在里面，跟其他学校差不多？vanday才多少人，所有的大公司都会去？我听说只有big three才会有这种待遇。另外能麻烦高兴同学透漏一下中国同学都拿到哪几家公司的offer吗？

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-11 11:01

以下是引用bettywushh在2007-4-9 14:24:00的发言：

UNC肯定是个好学校。为了避免像其他帖子一样吵翻天，这里先声明一下。：－）

另外,Vandy的中国学生比较少，估计这个也是在CD上信息比较少的缘故，有兴趣的可以去看Vandy学生的blog，上面不少信息。

我其实也挺喜欢vandy，给钱大方，MBA的学费毕竟不是小数目。只是关系好的几个哥们都死劝我要看长远，都讲排名靠后的学校给奖是希望通过背景强的同学找到好工作，去提高学校的校友圈能力，主要是说服自己工作的大公司去自己学校招人，排名靠前的学校的校友圈已经在大公司了，所以才会有core school,那些校友是可以拉自己校友一把的。他们讲不是便宜没好货，只是如果排名前20和排名20后的学校找的工作都一样，谁还去排名靠前的学校阿，大家都去给奖的学校了。我自己一直在挣扎，以我的背景肯定是需要校友帮忙的，但这笔钱又不是小数。。。我其实挺希望VANDY的校友能说服我去vandy，但几个哥们真的。。。

作者: hswdream 时间: 2007-4-11 11:04

以下是引用muzikfantasy在2007-4-9 20:56:00的发言：

以下是两校的就业统计:

http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/Programs/MBA/careerServices/placement.cfm

http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/Community/recruiters/how-to-recruit/employment-report/upload/06Employment_new.pdf

UNC的校友呢，我着什么急啊, gee.

作者: wenzhang 时间: 2007-4-11 11:24

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-11 11:04:00的发言：

UNC的校友呢，我着什么急啊, gee.

thank you for your posters, every school has its own advantages and disadvantages, now that you have so many friends to consult, do you own research and make your own decision. 来美国一共也没多少中国人，为了这事，已经伤了UNC和高兴的和气，实在不值。我不打算在这里发言了。

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-4-11 14:43

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-11 11:01:00的发言：

hswdream， 我也在这个帖子里给你最后回一次，伤和气不好，UNC和Vandy的友好关系应该保持下去，两校的学生都无意争论谁更好，各有各的好，大家都喜欢自己的学校是一件好事情，说明大家都比较满意自己的选择，这个话题就到此为止。LZ mm觉得两个学校都很好，也已经决定去UNC了，在这里祝福她，我跟LZ mm 私下谈过很多次，我很欣赏LZ mm，是个很聪明漂亮的MM, 我们两个也从来没有因为UNC和Vandy有过不同意见,我们两个将来作为两个学校的学生会继续把友好的关系发扬下去。

等你拿到Vandy的offer再加足够让你动心的奖学金以后，再来考虑去不去Vandy还是来的及的。现在还是focus在申请上吧。

祝你好运!

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-4-11 20:32

I haven't shown up on my post for long. Wow, there are a lot of posts recently. I am glad that these two schools gained good attention from the prospective MBA students.

bettywushh, I really like you. You are young, friendly and really smart! I bet you will reach your goal in the states. I have already decided to go to UNC and put in the deposit. Bettywushh, good luck to you in Vandy. We two can communicate very well. I will go and visit you in Vandy. Dont forget to host me there:-).

Regarding the reason why I choose UNC, it is because:

1.After I got enrolled, I fall in love with the school from the moment I received its beautiful admission package. (Vandy also has the pretty admission package, too.) And I feel very warm from the UNC admits yahoo group. Every admit can post whatever you want to say there and have the reply immediately.

2. I really like the prospective students from China this year. We have that great guy: gmatandmba in UNC this year. We, 2009 UNC Chinese admits, chat almost every day, we play together and we even give each other a nick name. We took a lot of photos together and put on the yahoo group. And I will fly to BJ and meet the Beijing admits and alumni next weekend. One of the Beijing admits even exchanged the mileage for the free air tickets for me.

3. My career goal. I want to go to the consulting industry. I compared the job placement data from the two schools. I talk to the current students and I make my conclusion.

Actually both schools are very nice school. The people are supurb and the campuses are gorgeous! Yet, everyone has his favorite and make his own choice.

Thank you to all.

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-4-12 0:28:34编辑过]

作者: small_head 时间: 2007-4-11 20:38
Hey, Bettywussh, I think even we two are in the different schools, we can still exchange needed information and help each other, right?

作者: hahahappy 时间: 2007-4-11 20:57

以下是引用hswdream在2007-4-11 10:14:00的发言：

这段话就很幼稚，不想说什么了

吵架帖都是先经一些非常幼稚的话语做铺垫，汗

作者: bettywushh 时间: 2007-4-11 21:01

以下是引用small_head在2007-4-11 20:38:00的发言：
Hey, Bettywussh, I think even we two are in the different schools, we can still exchange needed information and help each other, right?

Definitely yes, sweet girl!

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