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标题: [原创]MBA with no W/E [打印本页]

作者: citigroupztc 时间: 2006-11-30 09:00
标题: [原创]MBA with no W/E

I went to U.S. undergrad and currently working at Citigroup Corporate & Investment Bank in New York. I noticed many students here on the forum are talking about getting a MBA degree right out of college without working full-time for 2 or 3 years, and I feel obligated to share some insight with and give out some advices to you. I feel very strong that getting a MBA without working for 2 or 3 years is not only a waste of money but your own time.

The reasons are:

1) Your chance of getting into top MBA program is slim, if not zero. It is true that many top MBA programs claim that they do accept applications from college seniors, and some of them even waive your application fee. However, as far as I know, you need to have extraordinary academic record, superior leadership experience either in or outside school, and in most cases, an extremely well-thought business idea or a big-name family business awaiting you to take charge. If you don't have all of the above criteria, you should seriously reconsider your plan. Even if you don't care about wasting application fee, a rejected record with your dream school is not very desirable at least.

2) If you are thinking out getting a MBA right now, you probably don't process the maturity factor that most top MBA programs are looking for in any one applicant. From
their perspective, how much you are getting paid by your employer is not as important as how well you have survived your first job after college. And this can demonstrate how mature you are and what kind of a person you are in front of your boss and colleagues, as reflected by your recommendations.

3) Working full-time for at least couple years will open your eyes and help you better decide which career path you really want to take. Sometimes a perfect job is not as perfect as you once thought and vice versa. Plus, you can really relate your real-life experience to MBA studies and achieve a better understanding of the work, people, and society. This is very very important for your personal develop and most important for your career promotion along the way. A MBA from Harvard will open as many doors as you can imagine, but after that it's you who decide who you want to be and how you are going to get there.

4) This is a general advice rather than specific. If you don't go to top 10 MBA, please don't go. Getting a MBA for the sake of getting it is very dangerous. We are talking about branding yourself for life. Don't rush and apply only when you are ready.

5) I think Chinese over emphasize the power of education. Education can change life but it's not the only way. A strong work ethic and persistence are more important, in my opinion. These are my two cents . Thanks for taking the time to read and I welcome any comment or correction.

作者: dicsnp 时间: 2006-11-30 09:04

very good points

Thanks

作者: dcatcher 时间: 2006-12-2 05:51
Well said.

作者: pumpkin 时间: 2006-12-2 06:00

作者: samchocolate 时间: 2006-12-2 11:29
6) MBA students with limited or no work experience are very difficult to find a job in US, because the whole MBA internship and recruiting program is tailored for senior employee or manager roles.

作者: gameinuk 时间: 2006-12-4 21:09

LOL, I doubt the authors's vista... Chicage are now recruiting w/e ppl up to 20% of the total class. You getting old, dude.

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-12-4 21:10:10编辑过]

作者: gonghao 时间: 2006-12-5 22:16

we need such pure-heated suggestions on CD even in application broad

thank you very much for your adivce

作者: riclyme 时间: 2008-7-16 20:59
nothing is impossible

作者: jelty 时间: 2008-7-20 09:03

All nice reasons except the last one.

以下是引用citigroupztc在2006-11-30 9:00:00的发言：

I went to U.S. undergrad and currently working at Citigroup Corporate & Investment Bank in New York. I noticed many students here on the forum are talking about getting a MBA degree right out of college without working full-time for 2 or 3 years, and I feel obligated to share some insight with and give out some advices to you. I feel very
strong that getting a MBA without working for 2 or 3 years is not only a waste of money but your own time.

The reasons are:

作者: easthunt 时间: 2008-7-21 22:46

I agree with all of your points. While at the same time I agree that, as someone said, nothing is impossible.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

作者: yoyofeiyue 时间: 2008-8-11 14:50

thank you very much~~

作者: hairicanye 时间: 2009-9-5 17:23

A great advice，3x LZ

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-9-5 18:41
While I respect your opinion, I think you need to add a very strong qualifier here. While going straight to business school after college may not have been suitable for you, everyone is at different maturity levels and at different stages of their lives. Some students can be ready straight out of college; others (as I'm sure everyone can attest to) may be 30 years old and still not be mature enough to benefit from a business school programme.

Choosing to go to business school is a complex choice that depends on many factors- one's readiness for doing so, one's needs, and so on, and to generalise to a single point- 'don't go if you're applying straight from college'- is oversimplistic and by its very nature flawed.

For instance, what is the point of going to business school? For some, the alumni network is important. Some think the brand-name is crucial. For others, business school is 'school' first- a chance first and foremost to learn how to do business. For the last group, for instance, I suspect that even going to a school outside of the top 10 would be fine, since the top 10 does not have a monopoly on the best business educators in the world. Perhaps from your point of view going to business school is primarily about branding, but for others, this may not be the case. And for a student who has never had a formal education in business, where is the shame in going to a school outside of the top 10, to learn from equally world-leading business professors?

Unlike you, I felt ready to go to business school straight after college. And no, I did not have a "well-thought business idea" or a "family business" to go back to. Did not have stellar leadership experience either, and while my academics were okay, I doubt they were significantly better than everyone in my school (ie I'm not a genius). In fact, you may wish to reflect a little more closely on what you think makes a good business school candidate. For in fact if you already have such a well-thought business idea, I would argue that you would be better off starting that business than going to business school. But I digress.

My point again is this: "why MBA and why now" are intensely personal questions that have no 'right answers'. Rather than worrying about what admissions committees look for ("is this GPA enough? Am I old enough? Do I need more work experience?" Etc), reflect most of all on your own readiness and your own reasons for going. When you convince yourself with good and well-founded reasons, you'll often find that others are ready to listen to your case for business school too.

作者: llmakeit 时间: 2009-9-6 00:49

Well,I'm still reading...

Sorry for no more comments...

作者: mhe2 时间: 2009-9-6 17:46

以下是引用jelt2359在2009/9/5 18:41:00的发言：
While I respect your opinion, I think you need to add a very strong qualifier here. While going straight to business school after college may not have been suitable for you, everyone is at different maturity levels and at different stages of their lives. Some students can be ready straight out of college; others (as I'm sure everyone can attest to) may be 30 years old and still not be mature enough to benefit from a business school programme.

Choosing to go to business school is a complex choice that depends on many factors- one's readiness for doing so, one's needs, and so on, and to generalise to a single point- 'don't go if you're applying straight from college'- is oversimplistic and by its very nature flawed.

For instance, what is the point of going to business school? For some, the alumni network is important. Some think the brand-name is crucial. For others, business school is 'school' first- a chance first and foremost to learn how to do business. For the last group, for instance, I suspect that even going to a school outside of the top 10 would be fine, since the top 10 does not have a monopoly on the best business educators in the world. Perhaps from your point of view going to business school is primarily about branding, but for others, this may not be the case. And for a student who has never had a formal education in business, where is the shame in going to a school outside of the top 10, to learn from equally world-leading business professors?

Unlike you, I felt ready to go to business school straight after college. And no, I did not have a "well-thought business idea" or a "family business" to go back to. Did not have stellar leadership experience either, and while my academics were okay, I doubt they were significantly better than everyone in my school (ie I'm not a genius). In fact, you may wish to reflect a little more closely on what you think makes a good business school candidate. For in fact if you already have such a well-thought business idea, I would argue that you would be better off starting that business than going to business school. But I digress.

My point again is this: "why MBA and why now" are intensely personal questions that have no 'right answers'. Rather than worrying about what admissions committees look for ("is this GPA enough? Am I old enough? Do I need more work experience?" Etc), reflect most of all on your own readiness and your own reasons for going. When you convince yourself with good and well-founded reasons, you'll often find that others are ready to listen to your case for business school too.

very inspiring! thank you so much!

作者: toujour 时间: 2009-12-27 17:18
我被Marquette的MBA 录取了，犹豫自己去不去，徘徊在MBA 和MSF之间，但是我觉得自己应该想想自己出去干嘛，想好了决定也好做了。我没有工作经验，可能是申请的学校不是很好，但是只要是想做那就有机会做到

作者: jenery 时间: 2009-12-27 22:43
I guess Jason will debate with LZ and he really comes in...

Well it's true whether to take an MBA straight after graduation from college depends on the situation of each candidate. But it's also true that most students at B-School have at least 2 years or more work experience and most B-Schools are looking for these candidates. That means your chances of getting admitted is smaller than others and you have to work much harder to get in, and finally compete with your classmates, who have sound work experience, when seeking job after graduation.

In terms of maturity, I agree with Jason that there are someone who are 30 years old but still not mature. But from recruiter's perspective, the general idea is the longer experience the one has, the more mature he is. Thus you have to demonstrate you are already well prepared although you don't have their expected work experience. This is extremely true when your school is not in top 10.

Chinese tend to overweight education, especially the brand of the school. People who come from top school are feeling good and expect they should be recognized and well paid. Ironically, when they join their "dream" companies, they start to think they don't need to study any more in their remaining life! I have to say, people who succeed are not those come from top schools, but who can dedicate to their work and continuously develop themselves in both hard skills and soft skills.

Some students don't really know what they want. Couple of years working could make them understand what is important to them. Not everyone should go to B-School, and going to B-School doesn't guarantee your success and happiness in the future.

作者: stellaecon 时间: 2009-12-28 02:44
我也是在美国读本科的，曾经也想早点读MBA，一步到位，不过工作了几年后我完全同意lz的看法。一进商学院，在课堂社交的假象外，就是围绕着找工作做准备。如果MBA不能为你带来一个好工作，那么除非你是富二代高干子弟纯粹镀金去的，你的MBA就是一个完全的失败。
在MBA，如果之前没有工作经验或者工作经验不够，那是基本上没可能拿到很好的面试机会的。我记得以前读金镛看到这么一句话（大意）：如果武功差人一步，那是处处受人压制，不会说有侥幸一大半时间他胜，一小半时间你胜。公司选择面试对象也是一样。凭什么要从没有的经验里面看到你的潜力呢？学校招生办可能喜欢听故事，但被他们认可、被录取离成功还差得远，真正工作了就发现社会现实无比。我工作了几年，行业都是MBA们争破头想去的，公司怎么看经验不够的人，面试官回来怎么嘲笑他们，再清楚不过。
所谓的nothing is impossible，这个impossible不只是入学，而是以后的种种。拔苗助长，想要这些impossible都变成possible，不是那么简单，说实话大部分能把所有的impossible变成possible的人，都不屑说这句话。
我大学有个中国学生毕业直接去了沃顿，成绩很好的，但是据说现在后悔极了，找工作挫折大了去了。
MBA只能读一次，所以有的时候读了还不如不读。等于二八年华的女子匆匆忙忙把自己嫁掉，还不如等几年可能遇到更好的良人。

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-28 04:55
stellaecon, jenery>

One can only say what made the most sense to them. For almost everyone thinking of business school, that has tended to be, "let's wait a few years". For the majority, that is the right decision for them. However, there are some who also say, "let's wait a few years", simply because "everyone says we should wait a few years", as opposed to, "I have reflected about my own situation, know why for some people it may make sense to go straight after school, but for me it doesn't."

For example, both of you, and many of the other posters before, raise VERY GOOD points about recruiting. When I applied for internships in consulting, I did not get a single interview offer. My resume is really nothing to shout about. However, I did not come to business school just to look for a job, so while perhaps I got what I deserved, this wasn't a big deal to me at all. When I talk to alumni, I frequently ask them, what's the #1 thing you wish you had done differently while you were in business school- and 95% of them tell me, "I wish I didn't spend that much time looking for a job." In the class that graduated 2008, almost half have already quit the job that they had coming out of school. When these alumni think back about how they spent almost two years looking for a job that they only did for less than two years, they find themselves regretting a lot.

As a person going to school without work experience, I had very different goals. To me, business school wasn't just about finding a job, an internship, and so on. I am here to build a career. I am here to equip myself with the necessary intellectual, emotional and soft-skill resources to do well- the intellectual comes from the classes; emotional from learning how to listen to myself and understand what I really want, as well as to be brave enough to tell others that I have failed to look for an internship that they may have found impressive; and soft-skills from working with other impressive professionals, in my club involvement.

I've found that two types of people tend to think like me- those without much experience (although not all of them. Some think that they need to compensate, and work doubly or triply hard to get that internship), and those with a lot, >10 years of work experience. I've found that many more experienced people have the same goals as me- they're here not to look for a job, but to build a career. We agree that it doesn't matter as much whether recruiters want to look for us right now- what matters most is whether, in another ten or twenty years, we are in the position, and have the skills, to succeed in the career that we choose.

Because of this, I have had a wonderful, wonderful experience at business school, and am well on the way to meeting all my goals. When I reflect back on my experience, I fear that a few years of working experience would have changed me in a negative way, because I would be very focused on a choice of a job, rather than a career, and I would also use a different set of priorities to choose a job, too. Looking at my classmates, it's stunning how quickly (within one month) they entered Wharton, and immediately abandoned all their diverse dreams of working in non-profit, in sports, in media, in clean-tech, and so on. Instead, 95% of people recruit only for one of the four industries, whether or not they had wanted to do this before business school- Banking, Consulting, PE, VC.

I would say, out of my >800 classmates, I am probably one of less than a hundred, who is pursuing the exact short-term career goal that I had written I would pursue in my application. And that's been the most important thing to me. I strongly believe that if I can't even be honest to myself, I can never expect to be happy. If it comes with needing to tell others, "I'm not doing the jobs you want to do. It's okay if I'm a failure in your eyes", then that's what I have to do. Fact is, I can't please everyone- and given a choice, I'll choose to please myself.

stellaecon> Exactly as you say, "MBA只能读一次，所以有的时候读了还不如不读。" If I had come here with a few years of work experience, and acted exactly like many of my classmates (or even that friend of yours who had gone straight to Wharton and worried only about his job after school) then that to me would have been a complete waste of time and money. I am thankful for the opportunity I've been given to not worry about competing for a job, and instead being able to focus on the fantastic resources both at Wharton, but also at UPenn, and I believe this has been the perfect business school experience for myself. I have learnt so much about myself, about life, and about others in the process, and I wouldn't trade this for the world.

I hope this helps explain why I so passionately persuade others to think clearly for themselves. I think it is obvious why waiting a few years is good for many people- because maturity does tend to increase over time. However, there are inherent advantages to attending business school as a person out of college, who has a different set of priorities. Most people don't understand the case for attending straight out of school, because they've never tried it. I feel fortunate to have done so.

Jason

作者: jenery 时间: 2009-12-28 06:05
Jason, I hear you. To be honest, I am in the same boat with you. For me, I don't need to worry about buying an apartment, since I've already had one. I don't need to worry about post-MBA placement, since technically, I'm still an employee of my current company while studying. I absolutely agree with you that to develop leadership and get prepared for future challenges are more important to an MBA candidate than simply get a job after graduation.

But most people are not like us: They have to quit their current employment, look for financial aid to support their study, and even struggle on whether to buy an apartment or take an MBA program. No doubt, they would expect to get paid off after graduation, thus seeking a better job is their first priority.

I believe you are more mature than your peers. For most students, who just complete their undergraduate study and are looking for MBA without work experience, unfortunately, they don't really know what they want. I bet they are considering this option because it's hard to get a satisfactory job these days. If that's the case, I'd suggest they think about their choices and others' advice carefully before taking action.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-28 08:29
Agree. For most people, applying straight away doesn't make sense. It was simply my experience, when I applied, that nobody else had given (or, could give) me the other side of the story- why it may be good to apply without work experience.

This is the main reason I write my own experience: so that CDers, particularly the minority for whom applying straight out of school may be a good choice, can get a balanced perspective.

作者: Lelouch 时间: 2009-12-28 10:52

我也是在美国读本科的，曾经也想早点读MBA，一步到位，不过工作了几年后我完全同意lz的看法。一进商学院，在课堂社交的假象外，就是围绕着找工作做准备。如果MBA不能为你带来一个好工作，那么除非你是富二代高干子弟纯粹镀金去的，你的MBA就是一个完全的失败。
在MBA，如果之前没有工作经验或者工作经验不够，那是基本上没可能拿到很好的面试机会的。我记得以前读金镛看到这么一句话（大意）：如果武功差人一步，那是处处受人压制，不会说有侥幸一大半时间他胜，一小半时间你胜。公司选择面试对象也是一样。凭什么要从没有的经验里面看到你的潜力呢？学校招生办可能喜欢听故事，但被他们认可、被录取离成功还差得远，真正工作了就发现社会现实无比。我工作了几年，行业都是MBA们争破头想去的，公司怎么看经验不够的人，面试官回来怎么嘲笑他们，再清楚不过。
所谓的nothing is impossible，这个impossible不只是入学，而是以后的种种。拔苗助长，想要这些impossible都变成possible，不是那么简单，说实话大部分能把所有的impossible变成possible的人，都不屑说这句话。
我大学有个中国学生毕业直接去了沃顿，成绩很好的，但是据说现在后悔极了，找工作挫折大了去了。
MBA只能读一次，所以有的时候读了还不如不读。等于二八年华的女子匆匆忙忙把自己嫁掉，还不如等几年可能遇到更好的良人。

-- by 会员 stellaecon (2009/12/28 2:44:18)

哈哈,二八年华匆匆把自己嫁掉,不如再等几年遇到更好的良人,好比喻

作者: stellaecon 时间: 2009-12-28 11:13
I'm sure that an MBA w/o WE can benefit a limited few, and this probably makes the most sense to them. However, you need to know that to most people, MBA is still about finding a better job. Not everyone can enjoy the luxury of spending $$$$$ on school without thinking about the next step after graduation. For those that apply simply trying to expedite career path, they will find themselves utterly wrong.

by the way, Jason, what are your career options after school then? Maybe you can share it with us so people know if it's realistic for them.

作者: cannedpineapple 时间: 2009-12-28 12:44
stellaecon> Agreed. For all of us, we study partly because we want to find a better job. But there is nothing magically different about you just because you got into and graduated from a business school. If business school is first and foremost about finding a better job, and therefore you spend as much time as you can recruiting, then have you really improved as a professional by the end of it? Debatable. This is what I mean by 'we have different goals'.

That piece of paper- MBA- does indeed give you more options. But some people take those job options as the chief and primary goal of business school, because you learn most at a workplace, while some people think that business school is still 'school', and you learn most at 'school'. I fall into the latter camp.

I am going to do sales, in a media company, selling advertisements, after business school. I wanted to work in the media pre-business school, and I want to do sales to learn the economics of the media business. This is extremely realistic for anyone- anyone on this chasedream forum can go and do this right now. You certainly don't need an MBA to do what I am going to do. This is what I wanted to do, so in my second year, I did not even bother looking for another job. I was presented with the option I wanted, and so I took it. It just so happened mine was an easy option, because most people don't want it. All the better for me

But like I said, the MBA has been more than finding a job, which is why perhaps my choice of job may sound strange. I have a specific plan in mind, and that plan lasts for the next 10 years, at least. So I'm not bothered. I got into the MBA programme with the aim to learn, and that's exactly what I've done. At the same time, I realise that part of that may be because of my own naivety, having not worked before, that I think that you can still learn certain things about business from a school environment- be it working with others, classes, and so on. Some people might think this makes me green behind the ears, that I will learn the 'truth' when I start working. They are no doubt right. There is much for me to learn. But at this point, what they see as my curse, my inexperience, I see as a blessing. I think that work experience, too, blinds people to the value of certain types of learning. Inexperience works both ways. I am inexperienced in knowing how to function in a work environment; they are inexperienced in knowing how to learn in a school.

I'm glad we agree that an MBA w/o WE can benefit some, though not all. The same can perhaps be said of any applicant to an MBA programme. Which, interestingly enough, coincides with a key question that all schools ask. Why do you want an MBA, why now, and why at our particular school?

Lastly, to answer your question directly- since I realise that my options are not what most people are looking for. My fellow classmates with no work experience are going to be doing the following things after graduation: PE, Real Estate, Banking, Consulting, General Management, Entrepreneurship. There aren't that many of us, which may explain why other industries (eg. non-profit) are less represented. We have found that the industries that traditionally have high turnover (consulting, banking) are much less open to hiring students with no work experience, since in effect they merely want to 'rent' your services for two years. On the other hand, we have had much better success finding employment in industries like PE, General Management, Entrepreneurship, where they look out for loyalty, for someone to stay a long time- these tend to be more willing to look past our obvious lack of skill-sets and look to our learning ability.

Having said that, some have still been successful in something like consulting. But not me.

I think I truly got what I deserved, because I really wasn't spending as much time as these other guys were doing recruiting. But everybody knows that we only have 24 hours a day... and everyone has to make trade-offs. You can't have it all, and what matters most is that you're happy with what you do have, and what you've had to give up.

BTW, the need to make trade-offs in business school is perhaps something most who haven't pursued an MBA don't understand. When you apply, you look out for, I want to do 'x, y and z'. But the moment you go into business school, you realise the choice becomes, 'I am willing to give up a, b and c'. Everyone starts out thinking they can do 'a, b AND c'. But soon you realise- say in recruiting, you wish you only had to spend one hour a day doing it, but there are people around you spending five hours, ten hours- every free moment, even, networking and doing more. So you realise you gotta do more if you really want to get the job, and you do, and eventually all you're doing is that. I didn't do this, which is why I said, I probably get what I deserve.

Anyway, to link this to my experience, I have chosen to give up something which a lot of my classmates, with more experience, haven't chosen to do- perhaps because they value the learning you can glean at the workplace more than I do. This is where my inexperience comes into play. Nonetheless, as I've mentioned above, I think inexperience works both ways, and it's interesting to me that it is the youngest (most experienced with school) and oldest (most experienced with work) guys at business school who have tended to make similar choices as I have.

Jason

作者: monicaasia 时间: 2009-12-28 13:26
constructive advice

作者: cathyzq 时间: 2009-12-28 14:09
赞成楼主

作者: cissechen 时间: 2009-12-28 17:20
Thanks for your sharing. Support ur point.

作者: meixiang 时间: 2010-1-16 22:25
I agree with you. without working experience,I still want to go to business school.

作者: sisleycheerup 时间: 2010-10-12 20:04
参考参考~~

作者: zstggd 时间: 2011-1-26 18:43
besides MBA
We still have a variety of choice...
: )
Thx LZ

作者: hanlei4141 时间: 2012-1-26 02:30
Author is talking bullshit.....you should first improve your writing skill and then try to convince people.

作者: chrishining 时间: 2012-1-26 07:20
关键一点没说，找工作的难度，没有工作经验的国际mba就业基本等于灾难

作者: 水色云涯 时间: 2012-1-26 08:52
找工作难不难永远是相对而言，有时候不是找不到，只是找不到想要的。如果放低点身价，从低处做起，如果是真的有实力，以后的发展还是会比其他人好的。

个人见解，莫要拍我。

作者: chrishining 时间: 2012-1-26 12:53
MBA毕业在很多公司只能从associate做起，你想低雇主也不干。没有工作经验，除非是top15吧，不然国际学生是很难有就业机会的，当然本科在美国读的另当别论

作者: OxSead 时间: 2012-1-26 16:05
ls正解

ls的ls啥都不懂，难怪怕被拍

作者: 无双1 时间: 2016-9-28 16:19
Thanks for sharing.

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