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标题: 想要留海外,关于欧洲(INSEAD)和美国(S16)的选校问题? [打印本页]

作者: ChengAll    时间: 2019-2-2 19:04
标题: 想要留海外,关于欧洲(INSEAD)和美国(S16)的选校问题?
CD上的大家好,

本人目前在工作上的原因遇到了瓶颈,所以希望去读MBA,读完MBA之后希望留在海外工作,进医药类企业。

目前有下面的考虑:

美国(S16):
Pros:
1. 薪资高
2. 英语工作环境
3. 比较方便转行
4.学校和工作经验认可度高
5. 华人更多

Cons:
1.价格昂贵
2.时间成本较高
3.工作需要抽签,有不确定性
4. 职业发展天花板相对欧洲高一点,但是也存在明显的天花板
5. 竞争激烈

欧洲(INSEAD):
Pros:
1.生活更舒服
2. 文化更和谐
3. 除了瑞士英国等地方,工作签证不是特别难

Cons:
1. 需要学习外语
2. 转行比较难
3. 时间太短不容易熟悉同学
4. 薪资不高
5. 职业发展天花板低

今天还看到关于欧洲学校的brand value的问题(好像抱怨的都是美国人,但是如果留欧应该不受影响?),请大家理性讨论下,对于我MBA后的目标,哪里的学校比较合适?怎样选学校比较合适?
P.S. 和INSEAD校友聊了下,蛮随和的

谢谢!


附上看到的争议:

As an INSEAD alumni I am always surprised at how highly INSEAD is ranked on the league tables. The INSEAD MBA has been a zero value add for me. INSEAD is a for profit school just like Hult or the University of Phoenix, INSEAD has all of the same issues and problems as any for profit school. Nobody has ever failed, you pay your fee you get your MBA.

Who owns INSEAD and are there any conflicts of interest? This should be investigated. The school is heavily orientated towards participants from strategy consultancies. The strategy consultants have on average 2 years of experience vs the non strategy students must have approx 7 years of experience. Could the owner of INSEAD be the partner in charge of education at one of the strategy consultancies? I made a mistake; I bought an intangible product from a seller I knew nothing about and that product was useless.

The first few days of INSEAD were interesting, I had many interesting discussions; but then the welcome week hazing event started. This consisted of the upper class playing a series of weird and often cruel pranks on the incoming class. For example; people were forced to fight each other and others were abandoned in the middle of the forest at night. This in a program were the average age is 28. This hazing ruined what might have otherwise been a good year. After the hazing event no one takes the school seriously. Since this hazing event was not listed on the brochure and this event negatively impacted my experience I feel that INSEAD was a bait and switch scam.

The final part of welcome week is the Dean's speech during which the Dean told us: 'INSEAD offers a general management MBA but if you want you can say that you have a specialization. If a background investigator calls the school, staff are trained to always answer 'yes'. You should try this; call INSEAD and ask does a specific alumni have an MBA with a concentration in Taxidermy or any other ridiculous subject, the school will say 'yes'!

After welcome week the place feels like a cult, no one will say anything against the school, facilities or social life. Descent is discouraged, those that fall foul of this rule can find themselves ostracized. People display symptoms of being brain washed. Hundreds of students, average age 28, get drunk in barns and tell each other that these are the best parties they have ever been to. However; one on one, in hushed tones, people said to me 'I thought I was the only one that didn't like the social life'.

The career service didn't seem to actually exist; there was an office labelled careers and there were people working there but it was a sham. The alleged career service did not even maintain student records, nor a job bank nor interview preparation materials. My undergraduate university offered this level of career services, I had expected INSEAD to exceed this standard. The careers services released reports on their own performance that read like North Korean harvest reports. In my promotion apparently a large percentage used the career service to find jobs and almost everyone changed career. We see the external
economist report contradicts these assertions. After graduation when you cannot get a job that is when the careers service start their victim blaming: 'you need to be more of an entrepreneur to get a job' or 'you didn't try hard enough'.

The actual education was a joke e.g. the finance professor stated 'the school has had feedback that some graduates don't know what bonds are; therefore, we'll spend the next 15 minutes on fixed income. Before INSEAD I had completed the CFA level 1 - I had expected my 'intense' INSEAD MBA to be a similar level of challenge to the CFA, INSEAD was trivial in comparison. The education was neither wide nor deep, the classes were pitched at the high school level.

The participants can be split into the following groups:

Wealthy global elite (top 0.1%)
Strategy consultants (non native English speakers)
Developing world (non elite,non strategy)
Developed world (non elite,non strategy)

The wealthy and strategy students are well served by the school. These people want to have a good time and get a rubber stamp MBA. Students from the developing world have language skills that will enable them to get jobs in growing markets that are underserved by other business schools. Developed world students get a very poor deal from INSEAD; the INSEAD MBA is just not sophisticated enough to compete in the MBA job market in the developed world. During INSEAD you will be a resource for other students, you will probably have more experience, be educated in leading universities and have a wealth of other experience. This will be sucked out of you and fed to people in the other groups. Employers will laugh at your MBA. Also INSEAD uses the word entrepreneur to mean unemployed. If you couldn't start a business before INSEAD how could you start a business upon graduation with all that debt?! Becoming an entrepreneur right after business school doesn't make sense; no pay for a year, spend $150,000, then start a business whilst servicing that debt?! INSEAD reports how many graduates go to the top consultancy firms; what they don't tell you is that almost all of those people are sponsored by those firms and already have those jobs. In reality very few people (1 or 2 in my class) get a new job upon graduation.

If you are there as a career changer from the developed world you are being scammed. You share your experience with the strategy consultant and family business students and when you graduate there are no jobs for you. The only logical explanation for the consistent large minority of students that do not do well post INSEAD, is that INSEAD is ripping of one group of students for the benefit of another.

INSEAD is constantly asking for donations - a 'for profit' business asking for donations! How is that not a scam?


US programs sending only a small percentage to other countries is much more about how great the US job market is right now and how high the compensation here is than about their "weak" track record at sending people abroad. Have you considered the possibility that graduates of US programs simply don't want to go abroad when they get a much better deal here? What this also means that if despite the higher comp and other perks, a US MBA wants to go abroad then they most likely can.
I also don't think INSEAD/LBS placements in the US vs. M7/T15 placements worldwide is a proper comparison because it is much more diffcult for non US MBA's (even those from LBS and INSEAD) to break into US companies than it is for US MBA's to break into companies in Europe or Asia. Part of it is because of the H1B lottery. The truth is that M7/T15 grads end up in the US mostly by choice. But you can still work internationally if you want. LBS or INSEAD will easily result in recruitment in Europe or Asia but will de facto shut you out of the US market for MBA's, which is likely larger than Europe & Asia combined. The choice thus becomes Easy US Recruitment with option to work in Asia/Europe vs. Easy Asia/Europe recruitment with no option to work in the US. I would take the former in a heartbeat.

I have serious doubts about the comment “In Europe, it's "INSEAD or Harvard".” This is probably a comment from someone who never spoke to Europeans in their native languages and for whom his classroom is equivalent to “Europe”.
I have stayed in France, Thailand, Australia, Germany, US, Algeria, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands, and Russia. I can tell you that it is absolutely not possible to compare INSEAD with a Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Oxbridge kind of brand (thank you Nobel Laureates from associated universities).
Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Oxbridge will be highly regarded woldwide (at least by anyone who learned English at some point) and this applies even in INSEAD’s home country: France (where INSEAD is unknown by the vast majority of citizen).
LBS and INSEAD will provide partial brands “where it matters” (banks+consulting). However please note that this whole brand thing does not really affect outcomes, apparently, as salaries and placements are quite similar for the top MBAs as well as M7+Oxbridge.
I do not deny trends such as kids dreaming about consulting will prefer INSEAD, mature future CFOs will prefer other schools but no school in the top MBAs will really close doors. In terms of international brand, however, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Oxbridge are the safest you can go with.



I chose INSEAD over an American school and regret my decision. Am still trying to get my first post MBA job interview. INSEAD is an English as a second language school; the instruction progresses at a snail's pace to benefit the non native English speakers. Native English speakers graduate with less knowledge than competitors from other business schools whereas non native English speakers graduate into job markets with much less competition.

The INSEAD brand is very weak in the US, the network is extremely weak, have been to many events and rarely does the conversation move beyond work visas and accommodation. The US is a transitory place for many INSEADers and locals are treated like localization service providers. One recent arrival even suggested that my kids should befriend his for the duration of their stay! Given the fact that native English speakers are treated like TA's at INSEAD I can see why I am still treated like part of the service.

Am a disappointed insead alum, I spent a year job hunting in the U.S. after graduation; not a single interview. The insead brand has quite a bad reputation; a common reply in the U.S. was 'we tried someone from there in the past and that person did not meet expectations'.
Unfortunately, in the recent past many rich kid brat types landed jobs in the U.S. post insead. These brats treated their jobs like a work holiday program and now the insead brand name is mud.
If you want to work in the U.S. immediately after business school; get an American MBA. If in the future you want to relocate to Europe your most recent work experience will be the most important factor.
One question that I think you need to answer is what is the utility of a MBA to you? You have big4 experience, realistically you are not going to learn much at insead. Why do you think that you need an MBA? Prior to insead I was in operations at an Investment bank on the east coast. At insead I learnt nothing new, met no one and the alumni network is bunk - I just have MBA on my resume. Insead opened no doors for me.
The average inseader wears expensive jeans and polo shirts, has three Apple devices, is from a wealthy family and stands around discussing in accent-less English how diverse they are - just because they are from different countries!


Am also an American graduate from insead I too wish I had done a U.S. MBA. The insead MBA just doesn't 'work'. To me it is a defective product.
Here on the east coast those that know the product generally hold it in poor regard. Insead is known to produce entitled general management graduates, inseaders expect to sit on top of others just managing them. Today a general management qualification is antiquated. Many inseaders think that they are very special and do not need to try, this has unfortunately translated into very poor performance in the work place - resulting in poor brand reputation. The other big dent in insead's U.S. brand is the Wharton exchange. People from Wharton go to insead and report back to their cohorts that it's a party school.
If insead was actually an amazing place producing one thousand elite business people each year, wouldn't you hear the roar it would produce? Wouldn't the business press have insead stories every few days? Wouldn't there be much more success evident?
I have seen no positive impact on my life and the others from my class are on the same career trajectory as they were before business school.
Insead is a stand alone private tertiary school. In other schools one could go to the comp sci, or bio-eng department etc to work on ideas. That just doesn't exist at insead.
My biggest disappointment with insead has to be the network. Am yet to have a single useful discussion. I want to meet people through insead but people are very closed minded and do not want to meet others. For example the up coming insead alumni forum for the Americas, the main networking event is a masquerade party. How is it possible to network at a masquerade party? This is typical of insead culture, it just doesn't make sense.



作者: garyhw    时间: 2019-2-2 19:22
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作者: zaza111    时间: 2019-2-5 21:37
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作者: aluzeing    时间: 2019-2-6 19:05
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作者: chrisleigh    时间: 2019-2-13 21:07
这对Insead的评价让人看了心惊肉跳的
作者: zhugewei    时间: 2019-2-15 13:12
其实我一直很在意很多人问的一个问题:“为什么那么多人说我要去读MBA,而没什么人说读完MBA之后我怎么样了?”

估计原因和楼主那篇文章差不多……
作者: gothicer    时间: 2019-3-16 21:25
分析一下主楼附上的长贴

首先是提炼后的答主关键信息:
1)美国人,MBA毕业后计划回美国工作
2)pre-MBA的职业是investment banking的operation(career path天花板明显),强烈希望通过MBA转行

凭借这两点就可以说,INSEAD不适合他
1)INSEAD在美国的reputation确实不如M7和S16,毕业季求职的便利和network也远不如美国本土的学校
2)1年又不带internship(如果是J class)的program本身就比较难转行,如果转行去consulting可能另当别论——但是需要花大量时间练case。INSEAD转行去consulting的人还是比较拼的

所以那位兄弟满腔愤懑可以理解,人就是冲着转行+回国工作去读的MBA,结果诸事不顺。
在我看来就是一个没选对合适学校的问题。

对中国的申请人,INSEAD不一定有他吐槽的那么差,M7/S16也不见得有他说的那么神奇。选对学校最关键。
如果楼主你要考虑申请INSEAD,请仔细考虑以下问题:
1)你想留在什么国家工作?如果想去美国,别选INSEAD。如果想留新加坡,INSEAD是个很不错的选择
2)你以前在医药行业工作过吗?转行的跨度有多大?如果跨度很大,又不是去consulting,那请慎重考虑1-yr program

你给到的方向太vague,MBA择校是需要慎重考虑的
作者: camelblack    时间: 2019-3-16 23:09
7楼的回复真相了
作者: kenwen882013    时间: 2019-3-17 17:37
看样子你被这个答案吓到了啊.
我觉得看你自己想去哪里发展. 我想申请INSEAD, 所以前端时间做了很多研究. wallstreetoisis 论坛里有很多INSEAD VS US MBA的讨论. 你可以参考一下.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/insead-ranking-where-would-you-place-insead
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/how-good-is-insead-really
总的来说, 如果你想去美国工作, 肯定S16.
但如果你想进consulting, 之后想在欧洲或者香港, 除非你拿到HBS, 个人觉得INSEAD并不会比其他M7差. 当然, 如果你年龄偏小, 可以afford多出的一年时间, 我也觉得M7会更好.

作者: Exar    时间: 2019-4-13 16:23
现在去全球化,哪里都不好留,新加坡甚至pr都不够要公民很多才给面试,北美估计也难。insead大部分中国学生能留海外的都是有本地工签pr这类
作者: 1Andre    时间: 2019-4-14 14:18
Mark一下!               
作者: 勋允勋允    时间: 2019-4-15 17:19
gothicer 发表于 2019-3-16 21:25
分析一下主楼附上的长贴

首先是提炼后的答主关键信息:

楼主正解
作者: vinsyx    时间: 2019-4-23 08:42
Mark一下
作者: 杀G700    时间: 2019-5-17 00:54
发表于 2019-03-16 21:25:37
分析一下主楼附上的长贴

首先是提炼后的答主关键信息:
1)美国人,MBA毕业后计划回美国工作...

Mark一下
作者: 法国彭于晏    时间: 2019-5-24 10:22
美国现在不是很好,考虑一下欧洲把
作者: 蟹黄味蚕豆    时间: 2019-6-2 23:41
gothicer 发表于 2019-3-16 21:25
分析一下主楼附上的长贴

首先是提炼后的答主关键信息:

同意!               
作者: pangchao2005    时间: 2021-10-6 23:10
感谢分享!               
作者: pangchao2005    时间: 2021-10-6 23:11
gothicer 发表于 2019-3-16 21:25
分析一下主楼附上的长贴

首先是提炼后的答主关键信息:

同意!               
作者: RJ12    时间: 2021-11-11 19:34
Mark




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