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标题: 备文观贴随感 [打印本页]

作者: wangp_cn 时间: 2003-8-13 15:53
标题: 备文观贴随感
最近一直忙着写essay，很少来这里转。今天看了一些帖子，觉得很失望，ChaseDream论坛竟然如此没有梦想。

不少帖子讲外国mba回国没有优势，找不到高薪工作，还有酱缸效应。这些当然反映了市场的局限，但是更加体现了用人市场对mba的失望，名校的mba又成了考试高手的代名词。

更加糟糕的是从这些帖子中我感到mba的确不配拿高薪。因为没有梦想。企业需要的是能够独挡一面的人才，只要能够为企业创造价值，多少工资都不算高。

有人竟然说美国毕业的mba唯一长处是英文好，我要给他一个嘴巴子－－刘阿斗。你的才能是把中国的产品带到世界舞台，去与三星、SONY、Philip竞争，去瓜分世界市场，不是在中国骗几个政府订单。你的对手是世界级的，中国培养的mba还需要10年才有这个能力。

我生在浙江农村，这里的乡镇企业早已把产品送到世界每一个国家，甚至有企业在日本某一市场占40%份额。他们已经具备进入世界市场的能力，需要mba把产品档次提高，进入高利润区。可是我们的mba在那里无病呻吟，却不愿意低一下眼看看自己真正能有所作为的地方。

在我老家我第一次看到兰宝机尼和本特利跑车 ... 而不是在上海或是北京，开车的不是 mba 而是农民。

难道top n 的 MBA 的梦想不如我老家的农民？

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-8-13 16:04:30编辑过]

作者: wangp_cn 时间: 2003-8-13 15:58
补充：我们村 500 人以上的企业超过100家，一半以上做服装出口，已经没有务农的人了。
隔壁村情况也差不多，但是以箱包出口为主。

稍微远一点几个村做小电器，利润更高，但是就是无法进入美国和日本市场。

这都是真正需要mba的地方。

愚见，欢迎拍砖

作者: fd 时间: 2003-8-13 16:15
那些农民如果不是农民，就坐在电脑前写essay做mba梦，而不是开兰宝机尼和本特利跑车 ... 了

作者: leeciao 时间: 2003-8-13 18:10
好！大快人心耶！

作者: Euphony 时间: 2003-8-13 18:33
浙江人真的厉害！偶去过一趟，已经觉得有很多东西值得学习！如果全国都象浙江人那么聪明，我们真够可以了！wang说的对，就需要我们改变赚钱无档次的局面。

作者: chipmunk 时间: 2003-8-14 01:46
Thanks wangp_cn for your great post. I really like your straightforward. First of all, I totally agree with you that we as Chinese MBA aspirants should have dream/responsibility to improve our Chinese company to compete with U.S or Japanese companies. On the other hand, reality wise, we also should realize that our dream may take some time and several steps to reach.

There are couple of reasons:
1) Most of us are still in the learning curve, even we graduate from b-school and stay in the U.S for couple of years. We choose U.S b-school and decide to work for U.S company for couple of years is mainly because that's the best place in the world we could learn/gain managment skills. If we already pass the learning curve and became a CEO type of person, there is no need to apply for b-school.

2) Salary issue. I personally know several people with more than 10M assets in China. They're very successful business man. Just like you said, one guy even occupied more than 50% in SouthEast Asia market. However, I felt very dissappointed when I get to know that they only paid RMB5,000/month to their senior managers. I'm not saying we should only work for money. But with that low salary, it's hard to say that our value is recognized.

Above is all based on my own observation and experience. I believe you have more knowledge & experience in this area. We'll all very appreciate if you could provide more thoughts on topics like "different culture/management style between U.S and Chinese company", or what you know about the salary for manager level employee in those companies.

Again, I really admire your aspiration and should declare that I have the same one.

作者: zhang206 时间: 2003-8-14 03:33
It’s the same in the US. I subscribe the Magazine of “INC”, which the authority on entrepreneurship in the US. Based on their recent survey, less than 30% of entrepreneurs in the US have a bachelor degree. You read me right. It’s less than 30%. The truth is that those with higher degrees will have a much difficult time to give up their “normal” jobs and start a business. Most of them are happy with the average life. This is human nature.

作者: k2 时间: 2003-8-14 03:52
wangp_cn，

看到你的贴子很令人高兴。浙江现在这么的红火。这些企业确实需要留美的mba帮助他们走向世界。除了英文之外，更重要的是他们了解western culture。我同意某人（好像是唐师曾，前新华社驻巴格达记者）说的一句话：这是说英语的人统治的世界。至少目前如此，西方人制定了游戏的规则。WTO就是一个明证。记得最近一期的business week上有一篇文章说：世界的产业链就像一个梯子，每个国家都像往上爬以剥削下面的人，而美国是这个梯子的顶端。他们把那些低附加值的工作都送到国外去，例如中国和印度，例如箱包制作。浙江有些虽不是外资，但不可否认这都是美国人不再做的工作。然后美国人做什么呢？INNOVATION。这是美国的核心竞争力。

国际资本永远KEEP SEARCHING成本最低的地方，现在他们找到了中国。但是我很担心，如果中国永远是这种低水平的加工业，没有INNOVATION，这种繁荣的现象能够持续多久？中国不能把自己的核心竞争力建立在中国有取之不尽的贫穷的老百姓身上！另外国际资本之后还有一个看不见的手，那就是政治。不可否认，中国的政治体制完全不同于西方，美国致力于改变中国的体制。虽然有人说现在利益相关，唇亡齿寒。这种可能性不大。但一旦西方权衡认为有必要采取某些行动。很难想象这种繁荣景象会持续下去。

中国的企业需要MBA，需要他们使企业走向世界，更重要的是提高生产管理水平，提高竞争力。换句话说，往梯子的更高的地方爬。

但是，现实是这些企业还不知道，或者是不确切的知道MBA会给他们带来的长期利益。或者说一些人并不看重长期利益。看到最近一批富人相继落网吗？国家也没有建立一个体制来保护这些企业安心的长期干下去。虽然是越来越好了。相应的企业的体制也不能使一个MBA安心的工作。记得以前看过一个报道说四川有家企业创新生产了可以真空包装的‘东颇肉‘，但是几年之后被当地政府给整垮了。看到最近的河北企业家孙大午的事了吗？何其相似！在国内开过公司，说实话，你不想偷漏税都难。而且生意要做大，必然要官商勾结，这就给今后政府整你埋下了伏笔。试问中国哪一个企业家没有给官员送过东西？记得龙永图部长在WTO之后接受采访说中国企业缺乏诚信，中国老百姓缺乏诚信。并认为这是中国入世最大的挑战。我想借用一句中国的古话来回龙部长：上梁不正下梁歪。

扯远了。

每次朋友聚会的时候最后的话题总是" 回国吗？‘。说的人多，做的很少。大部分人有PHD学位，最差也是MASTER，MBA。中国确实需要他们。但是现实是对于大多数人而言，如果实在是在美国找不到理想的工作，如果中国企业不可以出COMPARATIVE的薪水（那时他们的价值），他们不会回去。对于中国人而言，中国和美国各有巨大的优缺点。‘回国‘变成了他们永远的DILEMMA.这些人绝不是无病呻吟，而是在寻找能够容纳他们的土壤。

作者: tsljz 时间: 2003-8-14 05:17
wang_pn,

I am glad to read this thread as well. I believe that many people in this forum have their dreams. The point is not whether their dreams are big or small, but whether the envionrment allows them to achieve their dreams, if not, whether they can change the environment.

I agree with you that many XIANG1 ZHEN4 QI3 YE4 need people with professional management skills to help them grow. But not all of those entrepreneurs don't recognize the value of MBA.

A professor, who is doing research in human resource management in Zhong Shan univ. told me that the value of MBA is not recognized in China. The value of MBA is decided by whether MBAs can help the companies succeed. The fact is that the knowledge and skills learned in MBA education cannot bring the companies to further success. As k2 mentioned, sometimes the strategy and management are not the key factor in deciding whether the company will succeed in the current China. If the skills set of a MBA cannot help the companies succeed, why bother the owners of the companies hire you.

Many of my friends told me not to to those companies because they don't have the formal system. After you join those companies and make some progress, the owner of the companies may use different ways to restrict you. They don't want you to have too much power in the company. Without the appropriate system, MBAs may have to worry about their rights.

For the people who have already lived in the US for many years, going back is a tougher decision considering the children's education and family issue. Every one has to consider the risk when making decisions.

Just my $0.02. Admittedly, there are still many Chinese companies that respect the value of MBA. I am not ruling out all of them. In fact, I am very interested in hearing more examples. So if you can provide us more information, I would highly appreciate.

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-8-14 5:38:29编辑过]

作者: piloteer 时间: 2003-8-14 10:58
提示: 作者被禁止或删除内容自动屏蔽

作者: wangp_cn 时间: 2003-8-14 13:04
看了上面版主的回帖，我又要举起棒子了 :-D

中国社会经济在急剧变化中的，美丽的和丑陋的都有，事在人为。不要因为你看到了一些肮脏的，就否认了全部。但是更加重要的是不要把自己放在被动角色－－如果你的思路跳不出“因为他们这样，所以我也只好这样”，那你只配做跑腿的。如果你的想法是“这不好，我的责任是改变”，你就能开兰宝机尼而不是bmw325了。

肮脏的东西哪里都有：我在 ibm 一个5000人的division工作过一段时间。与我同时进IBM的一个女孩被division vp泡上了床，开始做美式二奶。她办公室离我的不远，一年内几乎没有来上班过，年底总评却成为我们部门唯一的优秀员工，次年成为manager。相对而言，国内工作比较干净，成了二奶就不来上班了。老板们都知道，二奶和其他员工很难相处。

相对而言，浙江的出口加工企业在国外的口碑都不错，比北方的国有企业好多了。业主都明白的很，要想接到国外订单，唯一的方法就是提高质量。歪门邪道是拿不到大订单的。

刚刚在写一篇ethics作文，越写越觉得自己不是个好人：（作文写得是我在上海参与的公司收购案，协助的机构包括KPMG，Arthur Anderson 和一个欧洲最大的律师事务所（名字贼长，记不住）。反正一番运作之后，我们把良性资产全部卷走，给银行留下了淘汰设备（帐面价值几个亿）和一帮下岗工人。我是小喽啰，跑跑腿，助纣为虐。

后来看了几个美国的收购案，发现有过之而无不及－手腕更加狠，中国下岗还考虑个群众影响，美国layoff是直来直去... 而且这帮后台操纵的狼都是以英雄的角色出现在财富杂志上的。

中国的薪资体系－－这里的兄弟都不傻，大家想想如果管理层工资真是5000一个月，哪里来那么多私人汽车，国内一辆本田的钱这里可以买奔驰了。会去爬格子了，改天再说吧。

作者: chipmunk 时间: 2003-8-14 14:13

以下是引用wangp_cn在2003-8-14 13:04:00的发言：
中国的薪资体系－－这里的兄弟都不傻，大家想想如果管理层工资真是5000一个月，哪里来那么多私人汽车，国内一辆本田的钱这里可以买奔驰了。

Could you please tell us how much those driving Lamborghini people pay for their managers? I mean for a normal company, not some extreme cases.

作者: tsljz 时间: 2003-8-14 20:43
欢迎举起棒子，呵呵。看来你对於乡镇企业了解比较多，那么可否请你介绍一下这些企业的机制(产权，管理等等)的现状和变革？随便说一点就行，希望了解一下，谢谢了。

另外，管理层的薪资结构是怎么样的呢？

[此贴子已经被作者于2003-8-14 20:44:16编辑过]

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